# Time For The Fence Along The Border **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640 "2006-05-21T16:20:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/401 "2006-06-03T16:44:11Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Ahh! It is as I thought. You have no clue regarding this topic. People who are _caught crossing the border_ are not _given a ticket to appear_ in court. The people who are ticketed and ordered to report to a court appearance are those who are already in the country, generally holding jobs, maybe owning homes, often for having overstayed visas (sometimes because we do not fund the agencies responsible for processing visa renewals for enough manpower to actually process them in the time necessary to renew, other times because they are hoping to simply stay here illegally). The people caught crossing into the country are not issued a ticket and told to feel free to roam around until their court date comes up. Now, there are, indeed, a lot of problems with the current process, but conflating separate issues, (and apparently being unaware that they are separate), is not helping you make your case. It simply causes some of us to doubt your claims and your logic when you appear to be unaware of what your claims actually are. I would be really interested to see someone provide evidence that anyone was ever caught crossing a border illegally and were simply issued a ticket and allowed to roam the country until their court date came up. [/QUOTE] Go to http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11497246/ for an article which details that 155,000 are given tickets to appear. At VDare there is a letter from a BP agent who reports that the OTM illegals are even stopping at the BP station to get their ticket, so that they can go on. After they get their court appearance date, they take them to the bus station and they are on their way. The F/O at our airline would have loved to have that opportunity. At other web sites one can see that the limit for illegal detentions is about 19,000 nationwide, and that when that limit if reached every day, they release the rest to keep the population in limits. Bush’s speech even refered to this stupid policy when he said he was going to increase the numbers of beds available. I guess all these people are lying. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/402 "2006-06-03T17:17:30Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Go to [http//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11497246/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11497246/) for an article which details that 155,000 are given tickets to appear. [/QUOTE] This? > [@](#): > > Previously, illegal Central Americans apprehended on the U.S. side of the border were routinely served with a notice to appear before an immigration judge at a later date, after which most just melted into the United States and disappeared. > > The majority of the 155,000 OTMs nabbed last year were freed onto the streets of U.S. cities. Bush called that so-called catch-and-release policy unacceptable. Although the article is poorly worded, there is nothing in that article that indicates that _people caught crossing the border_ were released _into_ the U.S. It would appear that the situation is as I already described (with citations): people who are discovered **to be** in the U.S. are not necessarily rounded up and either detained or shipped home, immediately. You continue to confuse the issue of preventing someone from crossing the border in the manner of your F/O with people who have managed to get across and begun to establish themselves. I am not arguing that we should allow people who are here, illegally, free run of the country. I am simply pointing out that this particular side discussion began with you claiming that the U.S. discriminates against illegals from everywhere except Mexico. Your example was that of a single resident alien prevented from crossing the border after failing to fill out his paperwork, not an example of being discriminated against for failing to have Mexico as a country of origin. The examples you have presented (after much pulling) have failed to support your claim. In fact, according to your most recent link, Mexicans are being discriminated against more than others, because they are shipped home, when discovered, while persons from other countries are assigned a court appearance. (Do you happen to have a breakdown of the countries from which the 155,000 OTM originated? In an article about people from Central America, it is easy to conclude that the 155,000 OTMs are all from Central America, but it might be a hasty and incorrect assumption.) You have still failed to demonstrate your claim that we discriminate against Europeans more than other groups. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/403 "2006-06-03T17:24:09Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You have still failed to demonstrate your claim that we discriminate against Europeans more than other groups. [/QUOTE] In fact, **randyjet,** as far as I can recall, you have not yet made a single important claim or argument in this thread that has not been shot down. Perhaps it’s time for you to do your bit in the War on Ignorance and re-examine your own thinking about immigration-related issues. BTW – you don’t help your case any by using VDARE as a source. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/404 "2006-06-04T01:21:45Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] This?Although the article is poorly worded, there is nothing in that article that indicates that _people caught crossing the border_ were released _into_ the U.S. > [@](#): > > Previously, illegal Central Americans apprehended on the U.S. side of the border were routinely served with a notice to appear before an immigration judge at a later date, after which most just melted into the United States and disappeared. > > The majority of the 155,000 OTMs nabbed last year were freed onto the streets of U.S. cities. Bush called that so-called catch-and-release policy unacceptable. [/quote] > [@](#): > > A new strategy to detain the non-Mexican immigrants and fly them home was imposed on the 2,000-mile border last September, although it has been applied only patchily. > > The program started in several areas of the border, notably the Del Rio and McAllen sectors in Texas, which had become swamped by OTMs. It covers citizens of Brazil, Honduras, Guatemala, Ecuador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica. > Click for related content > Mexico bars immigrants from thousands of jobs > ‘Meet the Press’ video: Illegal immigrants’ fate at issue > > U.S. Customs and Border Protection said some 70,000 non-Mexican immigrants have been caught crossing from Mexico since Oct. 1, down 11 percent from the same period a year ago. > > At present, a decision on whether to send OTMs home in many cases depends on whether there is detention space to hold them pending repatriation flights. > > Border Patrol spokeswoman Maria Valencia said it was common for agents to encounter OTMs attempting to pass themselves off as fellow Spanish-speaking Mexicans, and said some agents might be successfully tricked. [QUOTE=tomndebb] It would appear that the situation is as I already described (with citations): people who are discovered **to be** in the U.S. are not necessarily rounded up and either detained or shipped home, immediately. [/QUOTE] As the article clearly states, the policy was exactly that of issuing citations and releasing the OTMs. They were not rounded up in Houston, but apprehended while having just crossed the border by the Border Patrol. The BP does NOT go to Houston to round them up. They only operate on the border. > [@](#): > > You continue to confuse the issue of preventing someone from crossing the border in the manner of your F/O with people who have managed to get across and begun to establish themselves. The persons refered to in the article had no chance to establish themselves in the US since they had only been in the US for less than a day. > [@](#): > > I am not arguing that we should allow people who are here, illegally, free run of the country. The article clearly stated that that was indeed the case for OTMs who were simply ticketed. > [@](#): > > I am simply pointing out that this particular side discussion began with you claiming that the U.S. discriminates against illegals from everywhere except Mexico. Your example was that of a single resident alien prevented from crossing the border after failing to fill out his paperwork, not an example of being discriminated against for failing to have Mexico as a country of origin. The examples you have presented (after much pulling) have failed to support your claim. In fact, according to your most recent link, Mexicans are being discriminated against more than others, because they are shipped home, when discovered, while persons from other countries are assigned a court appearance. The Mexicans who are caught have the advantage since they are set free to try, try again until they succeed. Since the BP only nabs about 25% of illegals who cross, their chances are pretty good next time. Which is why the Central Americans want to play Mexican if they are by some chance unlucky enough to have beds available in the detention prison. Up until recently with that change, most OTMs would simply turn themselves in at the BP station and get their citation and go to the bus station to go on their way. > [@](#): > > (Do you happen to have a breakdown of the countries from which the 155,000 OTM originated? In an article about people from Central America, it is easy to conclude that the 155,000 OTMs are all from Central America, but it might be a hasty and incorrect assumption.) My GOD! You could be right. I should try out my Russian on any suspected illegals. It is an unwarranted assumption to think that most of the people crossing the southern border are from Mexico and Central America and that they would speak Spanish. Do you think we should start bilingual classes in Russian too? Instead of Buenos Dias, it will be Dobry Utro next time I see them. [/quote] You have still failed to demonstrate your claim that we discriminate against Europeans more than other groups. [/QUOTE] If you only enforce the law against the places where one group of people cross, and do not enforce it against other places, then yes that is discrimination especially if just one nationality or group predominates at each location. The numbers of illegals from Europe and Africa are miniscule compared to the numbers of illegals from Mexico and south. THat is discrimination on its face. Just as if 80% of motorists are pulled over for traffic violation are black as opposed to whites. That is discrimination I think you would agree. Even though both black and white are pulled over for the same stated reasons. Or we could assume that blacks have worse driving habits than whites as I am sure you could argue. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/405 "2006-06-04T02:05:53Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] If you only enforce the law against the places where one group of people cross, and do not enforce it against other places, then yes that is discrimination especially if just one nationality or group predominates at each location. The numbers of illegals from Europe and Africa are miniscule compared to the numbers of illegals from Mexico and south. THat is discrimination on its face. Just as if 80% of motorists are pulled over for traffic violation are black as opposed to whites. That is discrimination I think you would agree. Even though both black and white are pulled over for the same stated reasons. Or we could assume that blacks have worse driving habits than whites as I am sure you could argue. [/QUOTE] So ICE is discriminating by putting most of its focus on our southern border with Mexico? I thought that this thread was about putting a fence up across only the southern border. Isn’t that an advocation of this discrimination that you seem to find so deplorable? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/406 "2006-06-04T02:55:43Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] If you only enforce the law against the places where one group of people cross, and do not enforce it against other places, then yes that is discrimination especially if just one nationality or group predominates at each location. [/QUOTE] The US enforces its immigration laws at all borders. Some, such as the Alaska/Canada border require few resources to uphold the law. Others, such as the Mexico border, requre great resources to uphold the law. There is nothing discriminatory about that. [QUOTE=randyjet] The numbers of illegals from Europe and Africa are miniscule compared to the numbers of illegals from Mexico and south. THat is discrimination on its face. [/QUOTE] That is utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/407 "2006-06-04T07:45:52Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] As the article clearly states, the policy was exactly that of issuing citations and releasing the OTMs. They were not rounded up in Houston, but apprehended while having just crossed the border by the Border Patrol. The BP does NOT go to Houston to round them up. They only operate on the border. [/QUOTE] That is the interpretation you choose to place on the text, but that is not what the article actually says. > [@](#): > > The persons refered to in the article had no chance to establish themselves in the US since they had only been in the US for less than a day. However, they were in the U.S. You have no idea how many were rounded up in what place; it is simply your supposition. > [@](#): > > The article clearly stated that that was indeed the case for OTMs who were simply ticketed. You appear to be claiming that people caught crossing the border are handed tickets and permitted to continue across the border into the U.S., despite having actually been caught in the act of crossing. I call bullshit on your claim. If you have a news article that shows a BP officer handing a ticket to a person caught as they cross the border who permits that alien to continue into the U.S., pleasse show it. Otherwise, you are simply making up stuff. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/408 "2006-06-04T15:25:05Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] That is the interpretation you choose to place on the text, but that is not what the article actually says.However, they were in the U.S. You have no idea how many were rounded up in what place; it is simply your supposition.You appear to be claiming that people caught crossing the border are handed tickets and permitted to continue across the border into the U.S., despite having actually been caught in the act of crossing. I call bullshit on your claim. If you have a news article that shows a BP officer handing a ticket to a person caught as they cross the border who permits that alien to continue into the U.S., pleasse show it. Otherwise, you are simply making up stuff. [/QUOTE] I see the confusion is over where the BP catch the illegals. They do not get them just right at the border as they are crossing. Most illegals are quite smart enough to not cross while the BP is waiting on the other side. Most are caught well inside the border of the US. The BP operates within 50 miles of the border and most are caught in that area. As the article made clear it was previous policy for OTMs to get a citation and then go on their way. The article also states that this policy was instituted in McAllen, where I lived for a number of years, and Del Rio, both of which are right on the border. The OTM illegals are NOT caught in Houston and then transported to McAllen and Del Rio. The reason that they are there is that they were caught by the BP and not ICE. The article goes on to state that if the detention areas are full, then they are released to go on their way. In Bush’s speech he even said that they will not stop all OTMs, but just cut down on the numbers who are let go after illegally crossing. If you go to Judicial Watch, they have released a survey of illegals obtained from the BP that shows that 88% of illegals are from Mexico, then 3% Honduras, 4% El Salvador, and decreasing numbers for Guatemala, and other countries. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/409 "2006-06-04T15:44:37Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] The US enforces its immigration laws at all borders. Some, such as the Alaska/Canada border require few resources to uphold the law. Others, such as the Mexico border, requre great resources to uphold the law. There is nothing discriminatory about that. That is utter nonsense. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I should have been more precise in my wording. I should have said the US only EFFECTIVELY enforces the law at other borders and not on the southern one. I think that enforcing the law on only about 25% of the illegals at one, and close to 100% at the other is obviously discrimination. Just as it would be considered racial profiling if 80% of all traffic stops for violations were done to blacks, and only 20% to others. Such a situation in your view would not be profiling because the police were indeed enforcing the law impartially since there would not be a ticket given if the violation had not occurred. I don’t subscribe to that theory at all. So the fact that 80% of recent immigrants are from Mexico and Latin America is not discrimination, to what would you ascribe it? I don’t recall voting to allow such a lopsided immigration policy. I call it selective enforcement of the laws which cause such an imbalance. The US has not effectively enforced its immigration laws equally for whatever reason. That is an obvious fact. Or do you deny that most of the illegals are from south of the border? I think that is utter nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/410 "2006-06-04T16:37:39Z")
> [@](#): > > As the article made clear it was previous policy for OTMs to get a citation and then go on their way. Well, the article did not make that clear. You have drawn one inference from the statement and I have drawn a different inference. Barring actual evidence that a person who has just crossed the border in the last few hours has been routinely issued a ticket rather than being detained, I will continue to regard the situation, (based on actual policies and actual news reports), as one in which people caught living in the U.S. are issued a ticket while people caught entering or just after entering are ushered across the border. The distinction made in the story was that people, (who were going to be thrown out of the counrty, anyway), who are deemed to be from Central America are attempting to pass as Mexicans so that they will only be placed on the Mexico side of the line, not shipped back South of Mexico. None of those people are being issued tickets and allowed to remain. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/411 "2006-06-04T22:28:31Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Sorry, I should have been more precise in my wording. I should have said the US only EFFECTIVELY enforces the law at other borders and not on the southern one. [/QUOTE] There are relatively few people trying to illegally cross into and stay in the USA from Canada. There are relatively a great many people trying to illegally cross into and stay in the USA from from Mexico. This is not a result of discrimination by the USA. It is simply a result of Canada and the USA having a similar economies, but Mexico having a much poorer economy. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/412 "2006-06-04T22:59:57Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Sorry, I should have been more precise in my wording. I should have said the US only EFFECTIVELY enforces the law at other borders and not on the southern one. I think that enforcing the law on only about 25% of the illegals at one, and close to 100% at the other is obviously discrimination. Just as it would be considered racial profiling if 80% of all traffic stops for violations were done to blacks, and only 20% to others. Such a situation in your view would not be profiling because the police were indeed enforcing the law impartially since there would not be a ticket given if the violation had not occurred. I don’t subscribe to that theory at all. So the fact that 80% of recent immigrants are from Mexico and Latin America is not discrimination, to what would you ascribe it? I don’t recall voting to allow such a lopsided immigration policy. I call it selective enforcement of the laws which cause such an imbalance. The US has not effectively enforced its immigration laws equally for whatever reason. That is an obvious fact. Or do you deny that most of the illegals are from south of the border? I think that is utter nonsense. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that we selectively choose to not enforce the US/Mexico border when we want more latino people in the country? If it’s a systematic decision, then there should be a reason behind it. It’s not, seeing as how some of those latinos are here “illegally” and we’ve got “little to no control” over their movement, how do we make any decision stick? ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/413 "2006-06-04T23:56:29Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Are you saying that we selectively choose to not enforce the US/Mexico border when we want more latino people in the country? If it’s a systematic decision, then there should be a reason behind it. It’s not, seeing as how some of those latinos are here “illegally” and we’ve got “little to no control” over their movement, how do we make any decision stick? [/QUOTE] While I am not a fan of Rep. Norwood R-Ga, he did send a military team down to the border and made a long report on their findings. It also had detailed plans on how to effectively use the National Guard to secure the border with about 36,000 troops. Of course a fence would also be a force multiplier as well. The reason that the US has NOT secured the southern border is for a variety of reasons. A large element of the GOP wants the mass migration of low paid workers to keep wages down and unions weak. They love having illegals coming here. It is not so much that they love latinos per se, but that they create a lot of money for them. This is especially true of the small businessmen in our area. I was treated to a display of that at a meeting with our member of Congress who is a Republican when he had an open meeting. The GOP stalwarts sang the praises of the illegal workers and wanted more of them. These are the folks who write the campaign checks that they rely on. The problem is that their voters are not so inclined. The GOP is playing a smart game. They whip up their base against illegals which is a legitimate gripe, and at the same time they do nothing to impact the flow of them. The leaders of the tough borders movement get their names in the paper and get support, Bush gets to keep the illegals coming to keep his checkwriters happy. If no immigration reform bill passes, the GOP will be happy since they will win on both ends. The right wing elements of the GOP have no place to go and vote and the only danger is that they will stay at home on election day. Bush is trying to remedy that with the Gay Marriage amendment. I was at a conference in which the “professional” pols said that the Dems should keep a low profile on this issue and let the GOP fight among themselves. The problem is that the Dems then look weak and can rightly be accused of having no program. If the GOP voters stay home on election day, then they will be proved right. I doubt it though. I don’t think you can lead by having no program or addressing legitimate grievances and hope that somehow the voters will vote for your candidate just for a change. It also omitts any concern for security issues which should be a prime concern to all and should not be a political football for cynical use. The voters can see that and I think will respond accordingly. The Dems have to get the independent voters to vote for them. By simply refusing to address legitimate concerns over enforcing the laws, Dems appear to be weak on security and law enforcement. That does not go over well with most voters. That is also why in most polls voters view Dems as weak on national security and law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/414 "2006-06-05T00:01:12Z")
Agreed. The Dems can’t just do NOTHING. Um. We could…you know…not build a fence, save the money and manpower, and fix our internal problems which would fix this immigraiton problem. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/415 "2006-06-05T00:02:54Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Well, the article did not make that clear. You have drawn one inference from the statement and I have drawn a different inference. Barring actual evidence that a person who has just crossed the border in the last few hours has been routinely issued a ticket rather than being detained, I will continue to regard the situation, (based on actual policies and actual news reports), as one in which people caught living in the U.S. are issued a ticket while people caught entering or just after entering are ushered across the border. The distinction made in the story was that people, (who were going to be thrown out of the counrty, anyway), who are deemed to be from Central America are attempting to pass as Mexicans so that they will only be placed on the Mexico side of the line, not shipped back South of Mexico. None of those people are being issued tickets and allowed to remain. [/QUOTE] What do you think that they do with the OTMs when all the space in the detention centers are full as they are in most areas of the border? They cannot legally throw them over to the Mexican border since Mexico does enforce their immigration laws and won’t let them back into Mexico. As Bush said in his speech, they are reducing the numbers of OTMs who are released after crossing the border. He did NOT say he was eliminating it. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/416 "2006-06-05T00:18:14Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Agreed. The Dems can’t just do NOTHING. Um. We could..you know…not build a fence, save the money and manpower, and fix our internal problems which would fix this immigraiton problem. [/QUOTE] The funny or not so funny thing is that Bush could reduce the problem immediately by issuing an executive order to allow sharing of the false SS numbers with the DHS and the INS. A notice could be sent to employers that their employees are using stolen SS numbers and should be checked. If they are not then the sanctions in law should be enforced. It would not end the problem, since about 50% of illegals work as day laborers so they pay no taxes, or SS taxes. I had to laugh at the right wing since they slammed Kerry for voting for the fence and then saying that it will come down some time in the future. That is not flip flopping unless they plan to build a GREAT WALL of AMERICA on the border that will be visible from space and last for centuries. When things have settled down some time in the future, it will be indeed the right thing to take it down and restore the area so that we can enjoy the areas along it unhindered. Just as we had an 11 million man armed forces in WWII, after it was over we demobilized and destroyed a lot of the weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/417 "2006-06-05T00:36:03Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] unless they plan to build a GREAT WALL of AMERICA on the border that will be visible from space [/QUOTE] Plenty of stuff’s visible from space. Don’t believe it? type in your address in [http://maps.google.com](http://maps.google.com) and zoom in as far as you can. I did that for Houston, TX and can make out cars in parking lots fairly easily. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/418 "2006-06-05T00:52:10Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] about 50% of illegals work as day laborers so they pay no taxes, or SS taxes. [/QUOTE] That contradicts other statistics I’ve seen. What’s your source for that number? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/419 "2006-06-05T01:03:13Z")
[QUOTE=Eva Luna] That contradicts other statistics I’ve seen. What’s your source for that number? [/QUOTE] His imagination, I’d guess. [Here’s](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taxes17apr17,0,2638694.story?coll=la-home-headlines) a news story about illegal aliens paying taxes. Excerpts : > [@](#): > > Some illegal immigrants have long paid taxes through special identification numbers issued by the Internal Revenue Service for people who are not eligible for Social Security numbers — whether out of a sense of duty or hope for eventual citizenship. > > \< snip \> > > Illegal immigrants can file taxes by applying for an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN, designed for foreigners living here legally but now widely used by illegal immigrants. Last year, the Internal Revenue Service issued an estimated 1.2 million tax identification numbers — the vast majority of which ended up on tax returns, up from roughly 838,000 issued in 2004. > > The IRS, which has issued more than 9.2 million tax identification numbers since 1996, does not ask whether immigrants are legal. “Our job is to make sure that everyone who earns income within our borders pays the proper amount of taxes, even if they may not be working here legally,” IRS Commissioner Mark W. Everson said in an e-mail. > > \< snip \> > > On the other hand, many illegal immigrants have Social Security taxes withheld from their paychecks but are not entitled to collect any benefits. The Social Security Administration said $7 billion in payroll taxes had been credited to its trust fund from Social Security numbers that were either invalid or didn’t match names in the agency’s records. Undocumented workers are believed to make up a large portion of these contributors. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/420 "2006-06-05T03:02:10Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] This is not a result of discrimination by the USA. It is simply a result of Canada and the USA having a similar economies, but Mexico having a much poorer economy. [/QUOTE] Or, it could be that Canadians and Americans have greater respect for laws (or the reasons we have law) than Mexicans do. Which might also explain why they have such a problem with corrupt governments down there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=22)