# Time is not a dimension. There is no time **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138 "2008-11-11T02:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/21 "2008-11-11T03:01:29Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I’m fairly confident in saying that the fourth, non-spatial dimension in the universe _exists_ and that it differs from the three spatial dimensions in various important ways (eg the unidirectional flow of entropy … perhaps that is the only way and everything else follows from that?) > > That is of course an entirely different matter from the question of how our individual consciousnesses encounter that dimension - what the connection is and why it exists in the moment-to-moment fashion in which it appears to. > > I read an interesting speculation in a book by Fred Hoyle once (_October the 5th is Too Late_ I think it was called) that our consciousness does not actually progress from one instant to the next, linearly, but “jumps about” in a sort of quantum fashion, randomly forwards and backwards - in fact, I believe he might even have taken this speculation to its logical extreme, which is that there is only, at root _one_ element of consciousness (or, if you prefer, conscious entity) in the universe, and the illusion of multiple consciousnesses is due to it alighting in different brains where it can, at that particular instant, access the brain patterns of that biological organism, and then move on - or forwards or back or _across_ or wherever. > > An interesting speculation, BUT, as far as I can see totally non-falsifyable so not a subject for scientific endeavour. > > As for the speculation that future consciousnesses can influence present ones - well, I can only point out that if that were true even to a limited extent, James Randi would be out a million dollars already. I don’t see how you can be so confident. My explanation is so nice and tidy. Yours on the other hand requires some artifact to jump sequentially through time inhabiting different bodies (or the same body sequentially) to provide consciousness. Call it a ghost in the machine, or a soul, or what have you, but if you are going to posit the existence of such an artifact I think you should at least be able to describe its properties. How much does it weigh? My explanation requires no such artifact, and completely does away with the need to define a concept like time. So, unless you are prepared to define time, and explain the mechanism for this sequential consciousness jumping entity you propose, than occam’s razor suggests that my thesis (alternate future Scylla’s thesis, actually) is the superior one. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/22 "2008-11-11T03:08:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Time is the experience of motion. If we could replace every molecule in the Universe to precisely the same position as it were ten minutes ago, it would be ten minutes ago. But you cannot “travel in time” because there is no practical means to such an end. Interesting, so if I place a chicken in a refrigerator set to absolute zero thus stopping all motion inside the refrigerator, than time does not exist inside the refrigerator? > [@](#): > > So, in that sense, the OP is correct, there is no separate discrete dimension that is “time”. But since all beings experience “time”, in one form or another, the distinction between is and not is blurs. Time does not exist, except that, so far as we can observe, it does. We don’t actually observe this, we just think we do, in the same way that people of yore used to think the Sun circled the Earth. > [@](#): > > Oh, and the cat is dead. Stone dead, dead as a doornail. Dead. Yes, I’m certain. If that is true, than you realize that you are the one that killed the cat, by observing it, and collapsing its probability wave into a negative outcome. Catkiller! ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/23 "2008-11-11T03:08:59Z")
The middle section isn’t mine - it’s Fred’s. I don’t hold to it at all. I only argue that: The fourth dimension of the Universe, which is commonly called the temporal one, actually exists, if only as a mechanism for separating the physical objects at t=0 from those at t=1. There is no way whatsoever of knowing what our “spark of consciousness” is doing in relation to this dimension except for the bare fact that I know there is an **Aspidistra** -consciousness in existance at this moment…now. It may indeed be proceeding linearly from one instant to the next and that’s no worse a speculation than any other (though also no better) Future events do not influence past events. The arrow of causality is one-way only. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/24 "2008-11-11T03:12:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > For example, to decide whether or not it’s safe to go outside, you unknowingly and naturally communicate with all the future selves that have done so. 99.99999999999…% that have done so are fine. A vanishingly tiny fraction got hit by meteorites, eaten by tigers, enchanted by leprechauns or what have you. The former drown out the latter and you speculate based on this that it’s pretty safe to go outside. Doesn’t this imply that nobody would ever die in an unforseen accident? Since 99.99999% of future selves would be yelling at you ‘Fuck, don’t step that way you’re going to be brained by the falling meteor…AAAAARGH!’ ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/25 "2008-11-11T03:36:48Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > The fourth dimension of the Universe, which is commonly called the temporal one, actually exists, if only as a mechanism for separating the physical objects at t=0 from those at t=1. Fundamentally that’s just a semantic argument. If you arbitrarily call it “time” than I guess time does exist. But if it’s just another coordinate why bother calling something new? [/quote] There is no way whatsoever of knowing what our “spark of consciousness” is doing in relation to this dimension except for the bare fact that I know there is an **Aspidistra** -consciousness in existance at this moment…now. [/quote] No. That’s just an illusion. That experiment is a self-refuting one, because it’s intrinsically false. You can’t think that thought in a plack interval. Unless you can, it’s not true. You just feel as if it were true because of the connectedness of past you’s thinking that thought across trillions of planck slice universes. That feeling is simply the sum of that equation. > [@](#): > > It may indeed be proceeding linearly from one instant to the next and that’s no worse a speculation than any other (though also no better) Actually it’s worse, because you’ve added another factor into the explanation which itself needs to be explained. My explanation requires no such factor which makes it superior (unless you can explain yours.) For example, if we both observe a twig in a garage, I may say the wind deposited it there when the garage door opened. You may say that it was put there by an invisible giant red dragon. My explanation is superior because you cannot produce or demonstrate the giant invisible red dragon, but we can both feel the wind. Your “consciousness” is a giant invisible red dragon. "Future events do not influence past events. The arrow of causality is one-way only. [/QUOTE] If that were true, than you would be perfectly willing to stab yourself to death. You are probably unwilling to do so, because you consider the future that would produce (a dead you) to be an undesirable one. That unfavorable future has influenced your present because you seek to avoid that universe where you die bleeding of self-inflicted stab wounds. Therefore you do not stab yourself. In this example the future has just influenced the past (thank goodness, it saved your life!) So, be very grateful you communicate with the future. You do so only slightly differently than you do with the past. You remember only one past but are aware of many different futures. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/26 "2008-11-11T03:39:57Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Doesn’t this imply that nobody would ever die in an unforseen accident? Since 99.99999% of future selves would be yelling at you ‘Fuck, don’t step that way you’re going to be brained by the falling meteor…AAAAARGH!’ No. In fact, this would be such a highly improbable outcome that it would be exactly the opposite. Only .0000000000000000000001% or so would be yelling that. It would just suck if you turned out to be one of those. As you lay there, dying, regarding the highly improbable meteor hole in your sternum, you can take consolation in knowing that your alternate selves have escaped. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/27 "2008-11-11T03:42:49Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Doesn’t this imply that nobody would ever die in an unforseen accident? Since 99.99999% of future selves would be yelling at you ‘Fuck, don’t step that way you’re going to be brained by the falling meteor…AAAAARGH!’ Actually, it would mean that people _only_ died in unforeseen accidents. The odds of being struck and killed by a meteor are vanishingly small, so only a vanishingly small percentage of the possible universes would contain **Scylla** s being brained by a space rock. On the other hand, no one would ever undertake an action that was certain to kill him, because the overwhelming number of possible universes would be telling him not to take that obviously fatal action. In other words, **Scylla** ’s theory is neatly disproven by [this website.](http://www.darwinawards.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Hawkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@Hawkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkins)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/28 "2008-11-11T03:43:04Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Yes I did. I said “There is no time.” That is a refutation of the existence of time. It is a refutation that is not valid. Time exists in our universe. Time is what prevents everything from happening at once. Time separates the future from the present. Time is what will compel your children to send you to a nursing home. I hope I get to the same home so I can explain to you that you are taking too long to make a chess move. Especially when your Queen is in jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/29 "2008-11-11T03:44:33Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Then you did not understand it, I’ve just refuted the existence of time. Er, but it took me something to read your refutation, and I’m pretty sure what it took was time. Not all that much, understand, but I wouldn’t mind having it back. I’m gonna have to think about this for a while longer, whatever ‘a while longer’ may mean. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/30 "2008-11-11T03:50:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In other words, **Scylla** ’s theory is neatly disproven by [this website.](http://www.darwinawards.com/) Not really. There’s nothing that says you have to be intelligent and listen to your future selves. Only that you should. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/31 "2008-11-11T03:58:39Z")
> [@Hawkins](#): > > It is a refutation that is not valid. Oh, so now you are adding new conditions onto your objection? That’s hardly fair. I doubt it’s accurate either. Let’s see: > [@](#): > > Time exists in our universe. That’s an assertion you have made. I can refute with a refutation, which I already did . > [@](#): > > Time is what prevents everything from happening at once. Heh. That is intrinsically nonsensical statement. Without time, there is no “at once” and no problem in the first place. You only need time to prevent things happening “at once” if you’ve already posited time. Take time out of the equation and you have none of these problems. > [@](#): > > Time separates the future from the present. Without time there is no future and past, hence no problem. Again, positing time creates the problem you are trying to solve by hypothesizing the existence of time. > [@](#): > > Time is what will compel your children to send you to a nursing home. Not if I inhabit a universe where I take an elixir that keeps my vibrant. So, nope. > [@](#): > > I hope I get to the same home so I can explain to you that you are taking too long to make a chess move. > > Especially when your Queen is in jeopardy. That’s a highly improbable universe. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/32 "2008-11-11T04:06:14Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. In fact, this would be such a highly improbable outcome that it would be exactly the opposite. Only .0000000000000000000001% or so would be yelling that. It would just suck if you turned out to be one of those. > > As you lay there, dying, regarding the highly improbable meteor hole in your sternum, you can take consolation in knowing that your alternate selves have escaped. If you _happen_ to be close to the path of the meteorite though, surely the 50% of selves who happened to step left would be going AARGHnonono and teh 50% who stepped right “whew, dodged a bullet” thus prompting you to step right infallably? In other news, my precognition is currently infallibly seeing me not blowing off the scheduled IT group meeting in two minutes so I believe I will not be continuing with this conversaiton for a while… ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/33 "2008-11-11T04:27:38Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > If you _happen_ to be close to the path of the meteorite though, surely the 50% of selves who happened to step left would be going AARGHnonono and teh 50% who stepped right “whew, dodged a bullet” thus prompting you to step right infallably? No. It couldn’t work like that. If it did 50% wouldn’t have stepped left. This assumes that we are only dealing with the subset of selves which consider meteorite perforation an unfavorable outcome. Only a very few would have stepped left. > [@](#): > > In other news, my precognition is currently infallibly seeing me not blowing off the scheduled IT group meeting in two minutes so I believe I will not be continuing with this conversaiton for a while… Good. Hopefully you stick to this, and don’t represent one of those few who know better but blow off the meeting anyway and get fired. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@Hawkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkins)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/34 "2008-11-11T04:30:49Z")
**Scylla** , I admit it. You’ve won me over, Except for the ‘time doesn’t exist’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/35 "2008-11-11T04:52:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Yes I did. I said “There is no time.” That is a refutation of the existence of time. Denial != refutation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/36 "2008-11-11T04:53:31Z")
What is time? That was time. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/37 "2008-11-11T05:21:13Z")
False. That was space. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/38 "2008-11-11T05:23:11Z")
Scroll and unusual punishment ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/39 "2008-11-11T05:23:24Z")
The whole thing about time being a dimension (in the sense of the spatial dimensions) comes from Einstein’s special relativity. Roughly, there is some mixing up of what constitutes a separation in space and what constitutes a separation in time, depending on your frame of reference. Consider two events, let’s say lightning hitting the ground in two different places. Relative to one frame of reference you might say “Both lightning strikes happened at the same time, but were a meter apart.” But in another frame of reference you might say one happened slightly before the other, and that they were slightly more than a meter apart. The interval in _spacetime_, however, is unchanged between the two frames. I don’t think denying the reality of time addresses this issue. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138/40 "2008-11-11T05:38:23Z")
Take a clock for instance. Time does not make a clock run. Fast, slow or “on time”. A clock runs by a mechanical process that has nothing to do with time. It merely measures time. A gauge by which to standardize the passage of events. Whether that event is sitting watching the clock or hitting the stationary bike for 30 minutes. Time as a substance or entity does not exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-is-not-a-dimension-there-is-no-time/472138.md?page=3)