# Time & Newsweek drop pretense; embrace liberalism as survival strategy! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421 "2009-01-22T07:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/141 "2009-01-24T17:48:27Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I think you misread that. They _didn’t_ have a liberal bias in the past. That’s something you _thought_ that you saw. I disagree. They tilt further left than the Tower of Pisa and have done so for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/142 "2009-01-24T18:04:44Z")
Obligatory photo of tower of Pisa, showing **direction of tilt** : > **[Leaning Tower of Pisa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa)** > > The Leaning Tower of Pisa (Italian: torre pendente di Pisa), or simply, the Tower of Pisa (torre di Pisa \[ˈtorre di ˈpiːza; ˈpiːsa\]), is the campanile, or freestanding bell tower, of Pisa Cathedral. It is known for its nearly four-degree lean, the result of an unstable foundation. The tower is one of three structures in the Pisa's Cathedral Square (Piazza del Duomo), which includes the cathedral and Pisa Baptistry. > The height of the tower is 55.86 metres (183 feet 3 inches) from the ground on... ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/143 "2009-01-24T18:08:08Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Obligatory photo of tower of Pisa, showing **direction of tilt** : > > [Leaning Tower of Pisa - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa) I love this message board. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/144 "2009-01-24T18:18:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You can of course provide cites that I’ve ever claimed any such conspiracy? It isn’t necessary for the media to “conspire” to draw elites; elites are drawn to it (and to show business and Democrat politics) like moths to a flame. Of course, elites are even more likely to be drawn to business and Republican politics, **as you know.** > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, elitism, in the sense that conservatives refer to it, is a smug and haughty sense of moral and intellectual superiority . . . Which definition is meaningless **and dishonest** bullshit and to the shame and discredit of conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/145 "2009-01-24T18:34:47Z")
Elites is a magic word. Nobody is an elite , but, of course, so many other (bad) people are. Kind of like the word racist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/146 "2009-01-24T18:42:10Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > I mean Mallard Fillmore is satire, right? If only . . . [James K. Poult](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_the_Dancing_Bug) is satire. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/147 "2009-01-24T18:57:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, the exact type of smug, haughty (and largely baseless) moral and intellectual liberal superiority I’m speaking of can be found (and in fact can’t even be ignored 😃 ) right here on the good ol’ SDMB. Hundreds of posts a day demonstrate this very thing. I would be the last to disclaim a smug sense of moral and intellectual liberal superiority, but such is neither baseless nor elitist. Ya want baseless elitism, read [Russel Kirk.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_kirk) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/148 "2009-01-24T18:59:26Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Just in case anyone thought I was insane, I meant that Mallard Fillmore best sums up the silliness of arguments like the OP. > > I mean Mallard Fillmore is satire, right? [Like this guy?](http://www.theonion.com/content/cartoon/jan-12-2009) Yeah, I kinda thought you were insane. Glad to hear that’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/149 "2009-01-24T19:06:52Z")
I can’t remember who said it: “Anti-elitism is the phoniest kind of elitism, in that it pretends not to be elitist.” ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/150 "2009-01-24T19:17:37Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I can’t remember who said it: > > “Anti-elitism is the phoniest kind of elitism, in that it pretends not to be elitist.” This is precisely what Starving Artist doesn’t get. He doesn’t like liberals, so he constructs an image that jibes with his prejudices, regardless of how congruent they are with reality. He has decided that “elitist” is a bad word, and that’s what liberals are, ignoring concrete counterexamples offered by tomndebb and others. He refuses to see that the conservative base, which is white, married Christians who skew older, is inherently elitist and exclusionary, just in a different way. Everyone thinks they’re better than their opposition. It’s the human condition, not a liberal-only quality. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/151 "2009-01-25T09:49:08Z")
Thanks for the link to the photo, **Squink**! For a moment there I thought I had misremembered the Saturday I spent in Italy. > [@](#): > > **Miller** : I can’t say as I can think of a conservative philosophy that has achieved such total penetration into the social consciousness. For your consideration: Marriage should be between one man and one woman. Women must not participate in on-the-ground combat. Beating a child is an acceptable form of discipline. Single welfare mothers are a problem; single welfare fathers are not a problem. These are all in dispute now, but changing people’s thinking on them is difficult. Most bizarre image of the week award to **Rubystreak** for this: > [@](#): > > (You’re all better now, so I can pick on you without feeling like I’m drop-kicking a puppy for a field goal.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/152 "2009-01-25T12:56:15Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > For your consideration: > > Marriage should be between one man and one woman. > Women must not participate in on-the-ground combat. > Beating a child is an acceptable form of discipline. > Single welfare mothers are a problem; single welfare fathers are not a problem. > > These are all in dispute now, but changing people’s thinking on them is difficult. As an active conservative for the past 30 years, I didn’t get the memo that OKs child-beating & single welfare dads (especially ones that run around impregnating various women). Re “child-beating”, you’re not including all spanking are you? :dubious::dubious::dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/153 "2009-01-25T13:08:51Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Do we hear any such tsk-tsking because of the $120 million Obama spent? I thought we were trying to _encourage_ spending right now. People hoarding money is part of the economic slowdown. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/154 "2009-01-25T13:12:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is amusing, of course, to see someone who claims that every evil that occurs in this country is the result of the actions of one group also claims that that group is guilty of a feeling of superiority. In a way, it is- on the Right and the Left. After all, people who do perpetrate evil do feel they have a superiority over those they do it against, and people who fight evil also feel superior against evil-doers. People and ideas on the Right and the Left are flawed. People and ideas on the Right and the Left are also valuable. I lean Right on most things, the Dope leans Left on most things. Each sides feels morally & intellectually superior to the other side, AND there are instances where each side is very correct and instances where each side is painfully wrong. In this past election season, I have seen respected liberals on the SDMB cut loose with vomitous hateful bile that matches & surpasses anything I’ve heard on Right-wing talk radio. And because I hate to see that sort of thing from my own side, I don’t even go to Freepers unless I have to. (I did find some great info on the FBI’s secret dismissal of the John Birch Society there.) God knows, for intellectual and moral arrogance on the liberal end of the scale, you can’t beat the SDMB. (“But it’s because we ARE smarter and better than those conservatives!” a lot of you are thinking. Thank you.) And sometimes I’ll toss it right back- because sometimes I can be an asshole, also. And sometimes, it is because I’m smarter and better than some of you. 😃 And all the Dopers said: “Cite?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/155 "2009-01-25T16:00:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > …Most bizarre image of the week award to **Rubystreak** for this: Yeah! Darn that **Rubystreak** anyway, employing such harsh and offensive imagery! **Starkers** is right, our standards are woefully corrupt when such brutal metaphors as this are permitted…nay, _encouraged_!.. by the nattering nabobs of negativism. I blame the hippies. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/156 "2009-01-25T16:51:03Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > In a way, it is- on the Right and the Left. After all, people who do perpetrate evil do feel they have a superiority over those they do it against, and people who fight evil also feel superior against evil-doers. I’ve got no problem with this statement. My issue is with Starving Artist’s odd claim that only, (or, perhaps, primarily), the Left engages in this sort of behavior. There are clearly some folks on the left who speak as though those on the Right are idiots. Denying that, as some posters seem to do, is silly. On the other hand, there are a lot of folks on the Right who do the same toward the Left. As **Rubystreak** pointed out in her last post, a reverse snob is still a snob, just in a different direction. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/157 "2009-01-25T20:18:25Z")
After being away from the board for a while, all I can say is: plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/158 "2009-01-25T22:27:55Z")
Oh noes! **Hentor the Barbarian** has lost the power of speech (with the exception of a famous French apothegm in the original French)! I hope your aphasia goes away _tout de suite_ with just a few more days of exposure to the board. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/159 "2009-01-25T22:50:59Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Most bizarre image of the week award to **Rubystreak** for this: Sorry, sweetheart. elucidator said that. Give him the award. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421/160 "2009-01-26T01:15:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > After being away from the board for a while, all I can say is: plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Leave it to a godless hippy lefty to use _FRENCH_. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-newsweek-drop-pretense-embrace-liberalism-as-survival-strategy/482421.md?page=9)