# Time Signatures in music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 15, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514 "2004-01-15T02:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mamm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mamm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/21 "2004-01-15T15:40:38Z")
We find 4/4 more “natural” because 99,99% of the music we hear it since we are born are written/performed in that time signature. That’s the same reason why we find it strange to hear someone using a note which is not one of the twelve “standard” notes (like microtonal music). Or why we always want to hear a V7 resolve to a I. We are used to it. Another memorable odd-signature song: Pink Floyd’s “Time”. ---
**Author:** ![mamm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mamm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/22 "2004-01-15T15:43:16Z")
Damn! “99,99% of the music we HEAR SINCE we are born are written/performed”… ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/23 "2004-01-15T17:13:56Z")
**mamm** You’re thinking of Pink Floyd’s _Money_\*. Which is in seven, it’s either 7/4 or alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4, breaks into 4/4 for the guitar solo. ‘Time’ is definitely in 4/4. As for the OP I’d say dancing, it’s difficult to move repetitivly in patterns of 5 or 7 without jerking about. \*you knew that really. ---
**Author:** ![mamm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mamm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/24 "2004-01-15T17:19:09Z")
> [@Small Clanger](#): > > **mamm** You’re thinking of Pink Floyd’s _Money_\*. Which is in seven, it’s either 7/4 or alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4, breaks into 4/4 for the guitar solo. ‘Time’ is definitely in 4/4. > > As for the OP I’d say dancing, it’s difficult to move repetitivly in patterns of 5 or 7 without jerking about. > > \*you knew that really. Small Clanger, of course! Money! Sorry for my brain fart… As David Gilmour said, “I took my solo in the 4/4 part and the poor sax player got the 7/4 part.” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/25 "2004-01-15T18:13:37Z")
I also feel compelled to point out that a time signature is not, in fact, a fraction. Sure, we write it as “3/4”, but it really should be written as 3 4 Note the lack of a division line. And instead of writing “4/4”, would we instead write “1”? Should we write “3/4” as “.75”? I don’t think so. True, 3/4 has 75% of the beats that 4/4 does, but the time signature of a waltz is not really 75% of anything. And while 3/4 and 6/8 have the same number of eighth notes, they are harldy interchangeable. It’s two seperate numbers, people. They just happen to be arranged in the missionary position. It’s time we stop this madness before it affects our children. Won’t someone please think of the children? ---
**Author:** ![GrandfatherTrout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@GrandfatherTrout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandfatherTrout)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/26 "2004-01-15T21:31:25Z")
> [@Small Clanger](#): > > You’re thinking of Pink Floyd’s _Money_\*. Which is in seven. […] > > As for the OP I’d say dancing, it’s difficult to move repetitivly in patterns of 5 or 7 without jerking about. _See also:_ “Women and Men,” by They Might Be Giants. The chorus is in 8, but the verse is in 13. Catchy song, but if you try to dance to it you end up crashing into the furniture. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/27 "2004-01-15T21:52:25Z")
> [@](#): > > using Blue Rondo as an example, is Brubeck (or whoever wrote the song) divided it into 2-2-2-3, instead of the usual 3-3-3. > [@tdn](#): > > The reason Brubeck did that was to purposely sound odd. The emPHAsis is deliberately skewed to sound novel, and therefore difficult to dance to. A Turkish musician told me that that 2-2-2-3 thing is a real Turkish folk rhythm, though. I don’t think Brubeck was trying to sound original or odd, I think he was deliberately using a Turkish rhythm in a Turkish-esque song. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/28 "2004-01-15T22:33:11Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I also feel compelled to point out that a time signature is not, in fact, a fraction. Sure, we write it as “3/4”, but it really should be written as > 3 > 4 > > Note the lack of a division line. > > And instead of writing “4/4”, would we instead write “1”? Should we write “3/4” as “.75”? I don’t think so. True, 3/4 has 75% of the beats that 4/4 does, but the time signature of a waltz is not really 75% of anything. And while 3/4 and 6/8 have the same number of eighth notes, they are harldy interchangeable. > > It’s two seperate numbers, people. They just happen to be arranged in the missionary position. It’s time we stop this madness before it affects our children. > > Won’t someone please think of the children? Yeah, sort of. I mean, it’s only a time signature when you’ve got the numbers one on top of the other. It doesn’t really hurt to think of it as a fraction (just like thinking about the world as a sphere doesn’t really hurt unless you’re working on a PhD). I find students pick up pretty easily the concept that if you take your note of reference (say, a 1/4 note), and then stick the number of beats on the top half of that, you get your time signature. 1/8 notes and 9 beats per measure? 9/8. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/29 "2004-01-15T22:52:38Z")
“4/4” and the like are common ways of writing time signatures in academic papers. And in any case, they do function with an equivalence to a fraction, with ‘1’ being a semibreve/whole note. Separate point - it’s perfectly possible to write a catchy singable tune in an irregular meter. “All you need is love” comes to mind - it’s in 7/8. It’s just not as easy to do as to plod along in a 4/4, 4-bar-phrase way. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/30 "2004-01-16T03:22:16Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Yeah, sort of. I mean, it’s only a time signature when you’ve got the numbers one on top of the other. It doesn’t really hurt to think of it as a fraction (just like thinking about the world as a sphere doesn’t really hurt unless you’re working on a PhD). I find students pick up pretty easily the concept that if you take your note of reference (say, a 1/4 note), and then stick the number of beats on the top half of that, you get your time signature. 1/8 notes and 9 beats per measure? 9/8. Yeah, OK. It’s just that I got this memo today from The Department of Pedantry… As far as Blue Turk being from a standard 2-2-2-3 Turkish folk tradition – well, very interesting. I think that sort of reinforces my theory of time sigs being based on dance. But those Mideast/Roma/Furriner-types – a wacky lot, them. There’s some great music there. It’s nice to see Brubeck exploring that tradition. Have any classical composers done much of that? (Bartok, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/31 "2004-01-16T03:46:45Z")
> [@Cyrokk](#): > > As a musician, Slightly OT, but what kind of musician are you? By that I mean what instrument, and what style (jazz, rock, polka, top 40, classical)? Since you’re about to ask, I’m a hard-rockin’ electric guitarist, schooled in jazz, with a long history of baton work in both light opera and heavy symphonic and operatic work, a budding orchestrator, and a middling composer of many styles. All at the amateur level. Which is not according to divine prophecy. Oh, and my first operatic endeavor begins rehearsals in February, and goes up in April. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/32 "2004-01-16T04:27:31Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Have any classical composers done much of that? (Bartok, of course.) Bernstein would be another. Ever heard the Chichester Psalms? (parts of them use that exact rhythm, though punctuated a bit differently. It’s all very Israeli-sounding.) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/33 "2004-01-16T04:48:00Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Yeah, OK. It’s just that I got this memo today from The Department of Pedantry… > > As far as Blue Turk being from a standard 2-2-2-3 Turkish folk tradition – well, very interesting. I think that sort of reinforces my theory of time sigs being based on dance. But those Mideast/Roma/Furriner-types – a wacky lot, them. There’s some great music there. It’s nice to see Brubeck exploring that tradition. Have any classical composers done much of that? (Bartok, of course.) 🙂 No worries. Not necessarially of the cultural background you’re talking about, but Chopin composed a lot pieces that were essentially folk dances (Mazurkas, for example). ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/34 "2004-01-16T05:40:00Z")
Music is in 4/4 so the musicians can drift off during long rests and not have to count. If you’re in band long enough you know when 16 measures of 4 is up. If it’s some different time signature then you have to stay awake and COUNT. ugh. ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/35 "2004-01-16T05:54:30Z")
slight hijack… > [@GorillaMan](#): > > “All you need is love” comes to mind - it’s in 7/8. It’s just not as easy to do as to plod along in a 4/4, 4-bar-phrase way. Really? I don’t have a copy of it at hand (recorded or sheet music), but it sounds like a 4/4 when I sing it in my mind. I know a fair amount of music theory, and I would have expected myself to notice something like that. Can you teach me how to count the 7 beats? ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/36 "2004-01-16T06:12:12Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > **Hugh** > > I’ll try to keep it simple. > > A song in 3/4 time, a waltz but not necessarily is in > > Boom Chick Chick. > > 4/4 is Boom Chick Boom Chick. > > Boom is the base drum. > > Chick is a hit on a closed high hat. > > Now say Boom Chick Boom Chick over and over. (outloud please) > > Now say Boom Chick Chick, Boom Chick Chick over and over. (yes again outloud) > > Now you know. > > And knowing is half the battle. **Zebra** that was great. Simple, yet clear. I’m giving that advice to my 8-year-old who is being told by his piano teacher to count out loud, and who just isn’t getting it. I think this might help. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/37 "2004-01-16T06:21:17Z")
> [@TJdude825](#): > > slight hijack… > > Really? I don’t have a copy of it at hand (recorded or sheet music), but it sounds like a 4/4 when I sing it in my mind. I know a fair amount of music theory, and I would have expected myself to notice something like that. Can you teach me how to count the 7 beats? Does this make any sense? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 All you need is love (do-de do-de) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/38 "2004-01-16T13:35:47Z")
**Gorilla Man** : I’ve seen many arrangements of _All you need is love_, and I’ve never seen it written in 7/8, nor does it feel that way to me. How’s this for a count? ```auto 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 1 + 2 + All you need is love 3 e + a 4 e + a 1 e + a 2 + 3 + 4 + bah bahbah da da all you need is lov ^ triplet ^ ``` etc, etc… ---
**Author:** ![riserius1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@riserius1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/riserius1)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/39 "2004-01-16T13:55:36Z")
If you look at the verses, not the chorus I think you’ll find that they are indeed in 7/8 time(or, as some have said alternate between one bar of 4/4 and one bar of 3/4). The chorus then reverts to 4/4. The Beatles were experts at not only odd time signatures, but whipping back and forth betweem them midsong so slyly most people don’t realize what has happened. Case in point: _We Can Work It Out_ maintains a steady 4/4 beat for the majority of the song, then after the “fussing and fighting, my friends” bit, it then drops into 3/4 time for 4 bars. Chris W ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/40 "2004-01-16T14:26:18Z")
> [@riserius1](#): > > If you look at the verses, not the chorus I think you’ll find that they are indeed in 7/8 time(or, as some have said alternate between one bar of 4/4 and one bar of 3/4). The chorus then reverts to 4/4. The Beatles were experts at not only odd time signatures, but whipping back and forth betweem them midsong so slyly most people don’t realize what has happened. Case in point: _We Can Work It Out_ maintains a steady 4/4 beat for the majority of the song, then after the “fussing and fighting, my friends” bit, it then drops into 3/4 time for 4 bars. > > Chris W Gah! You’re 100% right! I totally wasn’t even thinking about the verses. **grumble grumble** Though I’ll save face by asserting definitively that it is indeed 4/4 followed by 3/4. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514.md?page=3)