# Time Signatures in music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 15, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514 "2004-01-15T02:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/41 "2004-01-16T14:46:50Z")
I would also like to call into question that Pink Floyd’s Money is in 4/7. If you simply count the beats in that bass line opening you find 8 beats. Now here (hear) is an interesting about time sigs and rock music. Music in 4/4 has 4 beats to the measure but not all beats are created equal. Rock music heavily favors beats 1 and 3 of that measure. A jazz peice would accent beats 2 and 4. Money has simply moved that expected accents. The two bar phrase bass line accents beast 1 3 & 4 of the first bar and 2and 4 of the second bar. **Doot** doo de **doot doot** do **doot** do **doot** \*\*one \*\* two and \*\*three four \*\* one **two** three **four**. I just fell in love with the new board. Being able to select text and hit the bold key is wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/42 "2004-01-16T15:06:36Z")
**Zebra** I actually checked the sheet music for ‘Money’ last night and the way it’s been notated is as 3/4:4/4 rather than 7/4. That is, it is written as alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4, but it is in seven, go on try dancing to it! OK maybe not, no-one ever danced to Pink Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/43 "2004-01-16T15:06:53Z")
I dont’ think the verses are in 7. John sings pretty loosly in the verses. He kind of floats over music. Don’t listen to him. Listen to the bass line and count the beats. The thing is that John tricks you by not started each phrase (Nothing you can do that can’t be done) on beat 2 of a measure. You would think that he would use the downbeat (beat one) but the down beat is a rest (silence) for the singer. Stravinsky’s Firebird suite (the final number in Fantasia 2000) is a ballet. People do dance to it. The famous finale is in 7. The way it is accented is alternating bars of 3 and 4. **1** 23 **1** 2 **3** 4 **1** 2 **3** 4 **1** 23 Or **1** 23 **4** 5 **6** 7 **1** 2 **3** 4 **5** 67 So people can dance to an wierd time sig. Of course after the original performance of the ballet there was a riot. And not the good kind of riot like that was so cool but the we really hated that music kind of riot. But people love it today. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/44 "2004-01-16T15:19:39Z")
> [@Small Clanger](#): > > OK maybe not, no-one ever danced to Pink Floyd. Hello? Munchkins? ---
**Author:** ![riserius1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@riserius1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/riserius1)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/45 "2004-01-16T15:24:55Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I dont’ think the verses are in 7. > > John sings pretty loosly in the verses. He kind of floats over music. Don’t listen to him. Listen to the bass line and count the beats. The thing is that John tricks you by not started each phrase (Nothing you can do that can’t be done) on beat 2 of a measure. You would think that he would use the downbeat (beat one) but the down beat is a rest (silence) for the singer. How John sings the verses is completely irrelevent. The actual song is in seven beats per measure(or, again, alternates 3 beats with 4). The way a singer sings a given line has NOTHING to do with the time signature. A good example might be \*\*Bob Dylan’s \*\* _Like A Rolling Stone_: The lyric he is singing in the verses is actually in 3/4 whereas the song itself is in 4/4!(If you don’t believe me, go take a listen to his original demo on the \*Bootleg Series vol-1-3 \* and hear the song in it’s original 3/4 time signature). ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/46 "2004-01-16T15:28:44Z")
Gawd this could run and run… No-one _normal_ ever danced to Pink Floyd. Happy now **Bruce**? Or you could try dancing to Zeppelin’s D’ yer Make ‘er which is deliberately in something daft like 11/16. You’ll look like a flippin’ Flowerpot Man. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/47 "2004-01-16T18:43:58Z")
> [@riserius1](#): > > How John sings the verses is completely irrelevent. The actual song is in seven beats per measure(or, again, alternates 3 beats with 4). The way a singer sings a given line has NOTHING to do with the time signature. A good example might be \*\*Bob Dylan’s \*\* _Like A Rolling Stone_: The lyric he is singing in the verses is actually in 3/4 whereas the song itself is in 4/4!(If you don’t believe me, go take a listen to his original demo on the \*Bootleg Series vol-1-3 \* and hear the song in it’s original 3/4 time signature). I know that how the singer is phrasing doesn’t matter. That’s why I pointed it out. I went down to Colony Records at lunch as they’re a block away, and checked out the sheet musice for All You Need is Love. The chorus is in 4/4 and the verse goes like this. A bar of 4, bar of 3, bar of 4 bar of 3, three bars of 4 and a final bar of three. So it’s mostly in 4. (5 bars of 4 to 3 bars of 3) I also checked out the sheet music for Like a Rolling Stone. But first a little more information. 4/4 time is soooooo common it has another name. “Common Time”. This is denoted on sheet music with a large letter C instead of the usual numbers. There is also a thing called “Cut Time”. This is marked on the sheet music as a large lette C with a verticle line running thourgh it. In Cut Time. The value of the notes is cut in half. So although a ‘whole note’ is written, it is only played for 2 ‘beats’ not the usual 4. Like a Rolling Stone is in Cut Time. Now I read the music as I played by Mr. Dylan’s singing in my head. He definetly is off from the sheet music. However I would suggest several possible explainations. 1 He is ‘interpeting’ the song. Not strictly adhearing to the proscribed rythm. 2 He is Bob Dylan and really is not a classically trained muscian and just kind of plays and sings and he lets the chips fall where they may. ( I really don’t know how ‘trained’ Dylan is but to me this sounds most likely.) 3 Maybe he recorded in 3 at a seperate session then the background music and a good sound mixer blended them together. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/48 "2004-01-16T20:01:01Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Stravinsky’s Firebird suite (the final number in Fantasia 2000) is a ballet. People do dance to it. The famous finale is in 7. The way it is accented is alternating bars of 3 and 4. > > **1** 23 **1** 2 **3** 4 **1** 2 **3** 4 **1** 23 > > Or > **1** 23 **4** 5 **6** 7 **1** 2 **3** 4 **5** 67 > So people can dance to an wierd time sig. > > Of course after the original performance of the ballet there was a riot. And not the good kind of riot like that was so cool but the we really hated that music kind of riot. But people love it today. As long as I’m in pedant mode… The Firebird **Suite** is a concert piece. The Firebird **Ballet** is a ballet. People normally don’t dance to the suite. At least not at the concerts I’ve been to. The finale is indeed in 7, not in 3 and 4. It is subdivided into 3-2-2, 2-2-3 as you said. But written in 7. There was no riot at the Firebird premier. You’re thinking of Le Sacre. People dance to Stravinsky, but these people are professional ballet dancers, not peasant folk sitting around a campfire. Ever try to get a 70 piece orchestra around a campfire? Among other things, the tuxes get dirty. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/49 "2004-01-16T20:05:56Z")
> [@Small Clanger](#): > > Or you could try dancing to Zeppelin’s D’ yer Make ‘er which is deliberately in something daft like 11/16. You’ll look like a flippin’ Flowerpot Man. You sure? That’s the song with the snazzy and complex lyrics “Oh oh oh oh oh you don’t have to go oh oh oh oh”, right? That’s pretty much in straight common time, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/50 "2004-01-17T00:45:51Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > As long as I’m in pedant mode… > > The Firebird **Suite** is a concert piece. The Firebird **Ballet** is a ballet. People normally don’t dance to the suite. At least not at the concerts I’ve been to. > > The finale is indeed in 7, not in 3 and 4. It is subdivided into 3-2-2, 2-2-3 as you said. But written in 7. Ultra-pedant - it has a time signature of 7/4, but clear subdivisions into the 2s and 3s marked with dotted barlines. ---
**Author:** ![Cyrokk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Cyrokk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrokk)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/51 "2004-01-17T01:10:53Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Slightly OT, but what kind of musician are you? By that I mean what instrument, and what style (jazz, rock, polka, top 40, classical)? I was a brass player in school, playing trombone and later tuba with much success during high school. I started playing guitar when I was 13 and have been playing now, though not professionally, for 20 years. My main music is heavy metal. I guess I over reached my assumption quite a bit. I can play with ease in 4/4, but when I get to a certain speed 16ths become too much work, yet I can play in a sextuplet feel with less stress (and this has been the case in all the instruments I played). And when I improvise without a beat, I usually slip into 6/8 without any thought. I do love odd-meter time signatures though, especially 5/4. Incidentally, **Small Clanger** , you are thinking of Zeppelin’s “The Crunge” which IIRC starts in 9/8 and slips between 3/8, 4/8, and 5/8. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/52 "2004-01-17T02:51:11Z")
Balkan folk music and Hungarian folk music often is in rather odd time signatures. 5/8, 7/8, and 9/8 are not uncommon, and people do dance to it. Time signatures like 6/8 and 12/8 are not really weird at all. I think most people would have absolutely no problem counting these, as the beats are still two and four beats to the bar, respectively, with a triple rather than duple feel. Think Elvis’s “I Can’t Help Falling in Love with You.” That’ll help you distinguish the difference between 3/4 and 6/8. 3/4 sounds like “OOM-PAH-PAH” and 6/8 is “LA-de-dah LA-de-dah” As for odd time signatures – they really aren’t at all that difficult once you get used to them. I find 7/8 easy; I could play it in my sleep, but years ago I couldn’t wrap my head around it. I always had to count it. But once you learn to FEEL it, it’s a snap. You don’t have to think or count or anything. Same deal with the odd time signature folk dances; if you grow up with it and are used to dealing with music outside 4/4, it’s natural. ---
**Author:** ![riserius1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@riserius1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/riserius1)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/53 "2004-01-18T03:02:52Z")
It’s probably worth noting that I have talked to a few music theorists in the past, one of whom is a member of Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and they have told me there are only 4 possibilities in western music: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4! every so-called “complex signature” is merely a combination of these 4. One told me that even pieces in x/8 or x/16, etc are merely variations on the original 4 played fast or _allegro_! 😕 As far as the **Dylan** song goes the song was originally in 4/4 time it was a last minute decision to put it in straight 4/4 time(ostensibly because the band couldn’t play a waltz). **Dylan** kept the original meter of the lyrics over the new beat, but AFAIK the song is an early take, possibly a first take, with live vocals. Chris W ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/54 "2004-01-18T04:24:47Z")
> [@riserius1](#): > > It’s probably worth noting that I have talked to a few music theorists in the past, one of whom is a member of Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and they have told me there are only 4 possibilities in western music: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4! every so-called “complex signature” is merely a combination of these 4. One told me that even pieces in x/8 or x/16, etc are merely variations on the original 4 played fast or _allegro_! 😕 I’m sure one can make an argument for this, but that’s silly. x/8 or x/16 don’t mean they’re necessarily faster. (I’m sure you understand this, as your confused emoticon suggests.) You could certianly make the argument that 6/8 is simply 2/4 played with the two beats subdivided in triplets instead of eight notes. Most blues (and jazz) retains a feel closer to 12/8 time then 4/4, but is generally written in 4/4. I have a hard time justifying 7/8 as being a fast 4/4 + 3/4. And if you’re going to break it down to 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4, why not just strip it further to simply 2/4 and 3/4. Pretty much all complex time signatures are broken up into groups of duple and triple meter. 7/8 is usually 2+2+3 or 3+2+2. Its just that when I see a time signature over 4, I usually. have a different set of metrical expectations that a signature over 8. 3/4 is almost always duple meter. 6/8 is almost always triple meter. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/55 "2004-01-18T12:29:44Z")
> [@riserius1](#): > > It’s probably worth noting that I have talked to a few music theorists in the past, one of whom is a member of Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and they have told me there are only 4 possibilities in western music: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4! every so-called “complex signature” is merely a combination of these 4. One told me that even pieces in x/8 or x/16, etc are merely variations on the original 4 played fast or _allegro_! 😕 Clearly they’ve never seen scores by Ferneyhough…signatures such as 2/10 and 7/12 are common. And no, I’m not about to try and explain them, unless you ask very nicely. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/56 "2004-01-18T17:01:41Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Clearly they’ve never seen scores by Ferneyhough…signatures such as 2/10 and 7/12 are common. And no, I’m not about to try and explain them, unless you ask very nicely. > 😛 OK, I’ll bite. I guess it was only a matter of time before somebody did this. What the heck is a tenth note and a twelfth note? I guess a twefth note would be one-third of an eighth note triplet. Did he invent special notation to indicate tenth notes and twelfth notes? I can honestly say, of all the crazy and whacky time signatures I’ve seen, I’ve never seen anything over somthing other than “1,2,4,8,16,32 or 64.” And I can’t think of any logical reason to make a tenth note (?) or a twelfth note the basic unit of your meter, when you could work within a perfectly well established convention which all musicians can read. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/57 "2004-01-18T17:04:13Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Clearly they’ve never seen scores by Ferneyhough…signatures such as 2/10 and 7/12 are common. And no, I’m not about to try and explain them, unless you ask very nicely. > 😛 Pwease pwease pwetty pwease I’ll be your bestest fwiend forever? What, pray tell, is a tenth note? As far ar the Cleveland guy’s assertion, one can certainly claim that a unit of one is the basic building block of any meter. Certainly any piece has a shortest note. Even then, I’ve seen things like 1 1/2 4 Sorry, no cite. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/58 "2004-01-19T16:25:23Z")
Oh heck, what have I got myself into…here goes… Take a bar of 4/8: **/1**. . . . **2**. . . . **3**. . . . **4**. . . . **/** Subdivide each beat into 5: **/1** 2 3 4 5 **2** 2 3 4 5 **3** 2 3 4 5 **4** 2 3 4 5 **/** Keeping counting at the same speed, count: **/1** 2 3 4 **2** 2 3 4 **3** 2 3 4 **4** 2 3 4 **/** You are now counting a bar of 4/10!! In other words, a quaver/eight note in 4/10 is four-fifths the length of a quaver in 4/8. To work out x/12, you do the same thing, but subdividing into 6 instead of 5. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/59 "2004-01-19T16:43:38Z")
Yup **Cyrokk** I meant “The Crunge”. I meant it to backup my guess that 4/4 is common ‘coz it’s easiest to dance to. The Crunge is supposed to be a _dance_ tune that you can’t dance to - though I dunno what Zeppelin were playing at - can anyone think of a Zep’ number that you _can_ dance to? ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514/60 "2004-01-19T21:09:29Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Keeping counting at the same speed, count: > > **/1** 2 3 4 **2** 2 3 4 **3** 2 3 4 **4** 2 3 4 **/** > > You are now counting a bar of 4/10!! In other words, a quaver/eight note in 4/10 is four-fifths the length of a quaver in 4/8. To work out x/12, you do the same thing, but subdividing into 6 instead of 5. I’m not doubting that Ferneyhough wrote something over 10, but this is a really stupid way to write a simple 5-against-4 passage. Can you tell me what context you saw this in? Was one instrument or group supposed to be in one tempo, and another in a simultaneous faster tempo? Tenth note, indeed! What a rube. Anyway, I can think of several better ways to accomplish whatever it was than to confuse the player with “tenth notes”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/224514.md?page=4)