# Time Signatures in Music **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526 "2010-04-18T13:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/1 "2010-04-18T13:48:05Z")
Although I can play piano at a reasonable level, I’m embarrassed to say that I don’t have a clue what the point of time signatures is. I understand the meaning of the numbers, (i.e. they dictate how many notes of a specific length fit into one bar), but do they have any effect on the sound of the music itself? Is it just to make the sheet music easier to read? That’s the only point of bars isn’t it, to make it easier to keep your place? (Sorry if this is a really basic question, I’ve never had any music lessons.) ---
**Author:** ![QuercusMax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/8baadc/32.png) [@QuercusMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuercusMax)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/2 "2010-04-18T14:04:08Z")
Well, in theory you _could_ break it up into measures at any old random interval, but it wouldn’t make any sense. Would be, the equivalent of, splitting up a, sentence with commas, without any scheme. The time signature generally corresponds to the rhythm of the music. It’s definitely not just to help keep your place - it’s an important clue to how it should be played. Trying saying these out loud to yourself, and see how they feel: DUM da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM da da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da DUM da da da DUM da da da DUM da da da The first it 3/4. Second is 2/2. Third is 4/4. Then you also have time signatures like 6/8, where it’s generally structured as two sets of 3 notes per measure (ONE two three Four five six). ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/3 "2010-04-18T14:07:21Z")
[This](http://guitar.ricmedia.com/Lessons/Time-signatures-part-1/) should help. ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/4 "2010-04-18T14:13:14Z")
@ **QuercusMax** : Hmm… wouldn’t that only really apply when there’s a drum beat involved? ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/5 "2010-04-18T14:19:38Z")
> [@Kiyoshi](#): > > @ **QuercusMax** : Hmm… wouldn’t that only really apply when there’s a drum beat involved? Virtually every song has a beat. Well, every song in western culture. A great example of 3/4 is “Everybody Hurts” by REM, and it doesn’t have a drum beat. ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/6 "2010-04-18T14:24:43Z")
Thanks for that link, **don’t ask**. The list of actual songs with Youtube videos helped a lot. I’m still not sure how it affects music without drums, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kiyoshi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e19adc/32.png) [@Kiyoshi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiyoshi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/7 "2010-04-18T14:27:39Z")
Oh, **Turek** ’s post has appeared while I was writing my last one. Yes, I’ve just listened to _Everybody Hurts_ and I can hear that rhythm clearly. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/8 "2010-04-18T14:54:56Z")
That song doesn’t feel like 3/4 at all to me. I’m pretty certain it’s 12/8, (or more likely 4/4 divided into triplets). If it were 3/4, it would mean an insanely fast tempo signature (around 180 quarters per minute), which would totally contradict the character of the song. What we’re really hearing is not: 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | … but rather: | 1 + + 2 + + 3 + + 4 + + | 1 + + 2 + … True 3/4 is extremely rare in popular music, and I don’t think this song is an example of it. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/839c29/32.png) [@A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Man_A_Plan_A_Canal)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/9 "2010-04-18T15:20:59Z")
To my banjo-playing ear, the Star Spangled Banner has always sounded like 3/4 to me, as opposed to most national anthems, which seem to be in 2/2. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/10 "2010-04-18T17:04:41Z")
Yeah, “Everybody Hurts” is definitely not in 3/4. I’d go with 12/8, although I’ve never seen the sheet music to verify that. If you want to hear a popular song in 3/4, listen to Billy Joel’s “Piano Man”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/11 "2010-04-18T17:04:54Z")
> [@Kiyoshi](#): > > @ **QuercusMax** : Hmm… wouldn’t that only really apply when there’s a drum beat involved? No, primary and secondary accents underly pretty much any kind of music that you play. “Everybody Hurts” is in 12/8, not 3/4. Signatures like 12/8 and 6/8 have a triplet feel, so they’d be subdivided as “1 and uh 2 and uh 3 and uh 4 and uh” and “1 and uh 2 and uh,” respectively. 3/4 has an eight-note feel, so if the measure is subdivided, it scans more like “1 and 2 and 3 and.” 3/4 used to be hugely popular in popular music. It’s the waltz beat, and waltzes were among the most popular types of music back before the 1950s. “Star-Spangled Banner” is indeed an example of 3/4. More recent examples of 3/4 include “Open Arms” by Journey. ---
**Author:** ![jasonh300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@jasonh300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasonh300)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/12 "2010-04-18T18:21:03Z")
Listen to Dave Brubeck Quartet’s “Take Five” for a very unique time signature (5/4). I’ve heard it used elsewhere, but my brain instantly locks in on “Take Five” any time I hear it used. Also, Alice In Chains “Them Bones” is in 7/8 except for the chorus, where it switches to 4/4. I have a habit of counting beats when I listen to the radio, so I pick up on odd time signatures all the time. I just can’t think of any others off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![MrFloppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@MrFloppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFloppy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/13 "2010-04-18T20:22:48Z")
Solsbury Hill by Peter Gabriel and Money by Floyd are both in 7/4 Pick any song by Rush. It’s going to be in some whacked out time signature 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/14 "2010-04-18T20:36:16Z")
Beautiful Dreamer by Stephen Foster and The Impossible Dream from Man of La Mancha are both in 9/8 time. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/15 "2010-04-19T01:08:36Z")
> [@A\_Man\_A\_Plan\_A\_Canal](#): > > To my banjo-playing ear, the Star Spangled Banner has always sounded like 3/4 to me, as opposed to most national anthems, which seem to be in 2/2. Good ear. It was written in 3/4. But it has four-bar phrases\*, so if you were just looking at the music, you could force it into 4/4 with 3-bar phrases. The built-in accents of 3/4 are still there, though. The two eighth note (or dotted eighth-sixteenth) intro is always before the first beat of a measure, and long notes start on the first beat of a measure. You can still hear these accents, even without a drum beat backing them, and with someone not even bothering to modify the dynamics on the accented beats. BTW, most pop songs are very big on the accents. So, if you’re playing one, accent (increase volume of one note) where the drums hit, and you’ll find you sound better. (Of course, that’s only a general rule, and you’ll have to play around with it. But accents are important.) \*An argument can be made for two- and eight-bar phrases, but I feel the former are too short, and the latter doesn’t change my point: the 4/4 must take 8-bar phrases. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/16 "2010-04-19T01:46:48Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Beautiful Dreamer by Stephen Foster and The Impossible Dream from Man of La Mancha are both in 9/8 time. And we’re so unused to that that it almost sounds like a broken time signature (colloquial name for those like 7/8 or 5/4. They feel kinda like a broken wheel). In Beautiful Dreamer, in particular, I have to watch out or I’ll leave out a beat between phrases (between …“waiting for thee,” and “sounds of the rude world…,” for example.) And remember that Beautiful Dreamer is so old it’s public domain. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/17 "2010-04-19T04:05:33Z")
What is the time signature in America in _West Side Story_? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QS7wWzwak4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QS7wWzwak4) The interesting bit starts at 1:00 ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/18 "2010-04-19T04:10:02Z")
> [@jasonh300](#): > > I have a habit of counting beats when I listen to the radio, so I pick up on odd time signatures all the time. I just can’t think of any others off the top of my head. March of the Pigs by Nine Inch Nails constantly switches between 7/8 and 8/8 during the verses. There’s a Tool song, I can’t remember which, that constantly changes between 6/8, 7/8, and 8/8. It can be difficult to keep beat with either if you’re not accustomed to it. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/19 "2010-04-19T04:15:53Z")
Soundgarden used unusual time signatures all the time, though according to the members of the band it was by accident. Black Hole Sun is partly in 9/8 and Spoonman is partly in 7/4. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/20 "2010-04-19T04:21:02Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > What is the time signature in America in _West Side Story_? > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QS7wWzwak4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QS7wWzwak4) The interesting bit starts at 1:00 It’s 12/8 or something similar, but the last part of the phrase is syncopated, that is the beats are out of step with the time signature. You might also say that it is alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526.md?page=2)