# Time Signatures in Music **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526 "2010-04-18T13:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/21 "2010-04-19T05:17:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > It’s 12/8 or something similar, but the last part of the phrase is syncopated, that is the beats are out of step with the time signature. You might also say that it is alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4. It is alternating bars of 6/8 and 3/4. The rhythmic propulsion of the song comes from alternating the triple and duple meters. I’ve seen it written out as 6/8 (which is probably the simplest way of writing it out) – there’s no technical reason you can’t do that, other than 6/8 usually indicates two groupings of three, rather than three groupings of two. [Here’s what it looks like as alternating 6/8 and 3/4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alternating_time_signatures2.gif). ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/22 "2010-04-19T05:29:46Z")
Yeah 6/8 and 3/4 makes the most sense. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/23 "2010-04-19T05:45:09Z")
> [@jasonh300](#): > > Listen to Dave Brubeck Quartet’s “Take Five” for a very unique time signature (5/4). I’ve heard it used elsewhere, but my brain instantly locks in on “Take Five” any time I hear it used… I just can’t think of any others off the top of my head. Two others in 5/4 I can think of are the original theme to _Mission: Impossible_ and _Living In The Past_ by Jethro Tull. And a good example of 12/8 (for us old folk) is _Colour My World_ by Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/24 "2010-04-19T05:47:29Z")
I was told the true story of a musician who wrote the wedding march for his own wedding in some bizarre time. I’m not very good at time signatures myself, but it was somethng like 9/11 or 11/12. I suggested that perhaps the bride should have gotten even with him by actually walking into the church in time to the music. Can you recognize 3/4 time when you hear it? If you can clap once and hit your knees twice to the rhythm of a song, it’s usually 3/4 time. People’s names have natural rhythms to them too. The girl’s name _Natalie_ is usually pronounced as if it were in 3/4 time. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/25 "2010-04-19T05:54:13Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > Two others in 5/4 I can think of are the original theme to _Mission: Impossible_ and _Living In The Past_ by Jethro Tull. Also, if anyone remembers the Julian Hatfield Three from the early-to-mid-90s, there was her single [“Spin the Bottle,”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUAVbGoR81I) which was 5/4. ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/26 "2010-04-19T06:00:32Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > There’s a Tool song, I can’t remember which, that constantly changes between 6/8, 7/8, and 8/8. It can be difficult to keep beat with either if you’re not accustomed to it. [Lateralus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralus_%28song%29) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/27 "2010-04-19T06:01:46Z")
The Grateful Dead had a long jam instrumental called “The Eleven”, because it was in 11/4. I’m pretty good at hearing, counting, and sometimes even playing some time sigs but I’ve never been able to count The Eleven except after the modulation to major. Another Doper who is undoubtedly more proficient than I musically mentioned that in Western music the basic chord changes tend to occur at the beginnings of measures. It doesn’t mean you couldn’t write out a waltz, say, in 4/4, but 3/4 is just a more natural way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/28 "2010-04-19T06:03:25Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Soundgarden used unusual time signatures all the time, though according to the members of the band it was by accident. Black Hole Sun is partly in 9/8 and Spoonman is partly in 7/4. Pink Floyd have the occasional odd time signature. _Money_ is probably the most famous example; it is written in 7/4 (though I’ve seen it written as alternating bars of 4/4 and 3/4 which made the piece look overly complicated.) _Mother_ has a bar of 5/4 in the verses, and I think _Two Suns in the Sunset_ is in 5/4. I suspect some examples of odd time signatures, particularly where it is just one bar, come from fitting music to a lyric or riff. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/29 "2010-04-19T06:08:11Z")
Another strange one I just remembered: In the Broadway musical _Man Of La Mancha_ there is a song entitled _Dulcinea_. The song is one bar of 6/8 alternated with one bar of 3/4 throughout the entire song. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/30 "2010-04-19T06:09:21Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The Grateful Dead had a long jam instrumental called “The Eleven”, because it was in 11/4. I’m pretty good at hearing, counting, and sometimes even playing some time sigs but I’ve never been able to count The Eleven except after the modulation to major. I don’t know this particular Grateful Dead song or break or whatever it is, but 11 beats are most commonly (in my experience) divided as 3+3+3+2. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/31 "2010-04-19T13:15:49Z")
The beginning of Rachmaninoff’s \*Isle of the Dead \*is in 5/8, alternating between 3,2 and 2,3. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/32 "2010-04-19T14:15:41Z")
I’m amazed that the OP can play piano without understanding the role of rhythm in music sans percussion. Not disbelieving, just amazed. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/33 "2010-04-19T14:47:24Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m amazed that the OP can play piano without understanding the role of rhythm in music sans percussion. Not disbelieving, just amazed. I’m amazed that \*\*\*anyone \*\*\*thinks you need a drum for rhythm. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/34 "2010-04-19T15:07:02Z")
Just for the record, Pink Floyd’s “Money” changes to 4/4 for the guitar solo, then back to 7/4. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/35 "2010-04-19T15:19:41Z")
Question for everybody saying “this song is in 5/8 and so on”: Certainly, you can tell how many beats there are to the measure by listening to it, but how do you know it’s 5/8 and not 5/4? Isn’t the “note that gets the beat” simply a scoring convention? Couldn’t you take something written in 5/8, change all the eighth notes to quarter notes and so on, then change the time signature to 5/4 and have the same thing? Disclaimer: I don’t read music. I know, in theory, what the notations on a score mean, but there is no way in hell I can read something and play it. I could tell you, note by note, what it meant - I just can’t decipher it fast enough to play from it. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/36 "2010-04-19T15:25:13Z")
One song that really plays around with time signatures is _The Ocean_ by Led Zeppelin. It sounds like they’re dropping and adding beats all over the place… the riff that leads into the verses appears to be three bars of 4/4 followed by one bar of 3/4. And if you focus on what the guitar is playing, each line of the verses themselves appears to be four bars of 3/4 with an extra bar of 4/4 added on. But… The riff leading into the verses can also be counted simply as five bars of 3/4. And the verses themselves, if you listen to the drummer, are actually in 4/4 throughout. So… if you just count everything opposite to the way it sounds, it all comes out even. (And then of course they shift into a nice easy-to-understand 6/8 for the end.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/37 "2010-04-19T15:32:16Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Just for the record, Pink Floyd’s “Money” changes to 4/4 for the guitar solo, then back to 7/4. While we’re at it for more time signature talk, another similar example of this kind of 7-beat to 4- beat transition: [Blondies “Heart of Glass”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXlaOsNBDkk) segues into 7/8 for the first part of the instrumental section (~2:00 - 2:15) before coming back out to 4/4 when the backing vocals come back in. Also, Radiohead’s [Paranoid Android](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHiGbolFFGw) has repeating sections that delve into 7/8 for a few bars before coming back out as 4/4 (like at 2:10, or the repeating distorted guitar phrase at 3:17). Devo’s [Jocko Homo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap_YixOosgI&feature=related) is another one mostly in 7/8, with a transition to 4/4 midway through the song (when the four-to-the-floor bass drum kicks in.) ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/38 "2010-04-19T15:34:07Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m amazed that the OP can play piano without understanding the role of rhythm in music sans percussion. Not disbelieving, just amazed. I imagine the OP is in a similar boat to me with piano playing where he’s primarily self-taught and, thus, missed out on a lot of the theory part. Yes, rhythm is absolutely important, but it’s also something that I think anyone with musical talent just sort of “gets” on some level, especially with fairly common time signatures like 4/4 or 3/4. That is, before I put in effort to learning about time signatures, I could tell that something was off-rhythm, but I couldn’t tell you why. It’s the same sort of experience where one can tell that a certain sentence doesn’t sound right without necessarily knowing the name and purpose of the particular grammar rule that’s being violated. In fact, I think the grammar comparison will probably be most helpful to the OP. I don’t think learning about time signatures is strictly necessary, just like how one can learn a language through immersion and not have a formal understanding of the conjugations and other grammar rules. However, I do think taking the time to learn a little bit about them can really help, especially when getting into complicated rhythms. As an example, I was working on a piece just a couple weeks ago but was having difficulty with getting it to work with both hands because I kept losing beats. So I took a little bit of time to figure out what the time signature was, found out it wasn’t what I’d thought it was, made some adjustment to what I was playing with one hand, and it worked great. And while people are listing off crazy time signatures… check out Meshuggah or Dream Theater if you want some crazy stuff. Learning to appreciate their music is what got me wanting to learn time signatures. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/39 "2010-04-19T17:52:18Z")
One time while waiting to pick up a friend from the airport, my IPod played a random Dave Matthews Band song, and I sat there playing it over and over again trying to figure out the time signature. I’m a bit of a musician and still couldn’t get it. My friend who is a professional musician had a hard time figuring it out but I think he settled on “they’re switching signatures every measure.” Whatever it was, being that it was late and we were both exhausted, it was sort of mind-blowing. I wish I could remember the song, but I can’t pinpoint it. It’s on one of their first 2 albums of Live From Red Rocks. It may be a solo break too. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/40 "2010-04-19T18:18:21Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > Certainly, you can tell how many beats there are to the measure by listening to it, but how do you know it’s 5/8 and not 5/4? Isn’t the “note that gets the beat” simply a scoring convention? Couldn’t you take something written in 5/8, change all the eighth notes to quarter notes and so on, then change the time signature to 5/4 and have the same thing? Sure you could, but what type of note gets one beat can often determine the feel of the music. If something has a quarter note as the basic unit of counting, then I’d expect each beat to get some emphasis, and I’d expect the tempo to be relatively slow. If it has an eigth note as the unit, I’d expect the 8ths to go by fairly quickly and for the measure to be subdivided into major beats. For instance, if something was in 6/4, I’d expect something slow and maybe mysterious. Maybe like the opening strains of The Firebird. (Though I believe it’s actually in 12/8.) If something is in 6/8, I’d expect it to be bright and lively, and counted (and beaten) in two. In fact, that’s pretty much what 6/8 was invented for. Gilbert and Sullivan thrived on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526.md?page=3)