# Time Signatures in Music **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526 "2010-04-18T13:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/61 "2010-04-20T13:49:25Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > It should probably be noted that 12/8 and 4/4 with a shuffle feel are not really the same thing. There’s not really any great way to notate a shuffle feel. It’s also been tried as 4/4 with dotted eighth-sixteenths, but that really doesn’t get it either. I once read that the second note of a one-beat pairing is neither a third of a beat nor a fourth of one, but closer to two-fifths of one. I think you’re thinking of swing more than shuffle. But what you say is true. (And you can think of a shuffle as a “hard swing” I suppose.) Yes, when you “swing” eighths, the convention is usually to notate it at the top of the music as two connected eighth notes equals a triplet consisting of a quarter note and eighth not. (If that’s not clear, look at the notation [here](http://www.spirituality.com/articleimages/journal/2010/jan/allen5.jpg)). Now, I hear the underlying subdivision of beats as 3s, so 12/8 works for me, but 4/4 is more familiar and usual. And if you don’t have a lot of triplet patterns, much easier to work with, in my opinion. Anyhow, the literature I’ve seen about swing is pretty interesting. The amount of swing varies depending on what instrument is playing and the tempo of the piece. So the sax and drums in a band, while the main beats will line up for them, the subdivision of the swung eighths may differ. What I clearly remember is the faster the tempo, the more swing approaches a 50:50 (in other words, unswung) time division of eighth notes. The slower the tempo, and we start getting into shuffle territory, with swing approaching 75:25 or more. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/62 "2010-04-20T16:19:23Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > [QUOTE=yabob] > > Certainly, you can tell how many beats there are to the measure by listening to it, but how do you know it’s 5/8 and not 5/4? Isn’t the “note that gets the beat” simply a scoring convention? Couldn’t you take something written in 5/8, change all the eighth notes to quarter notes and so on, then change the time signature to 5/4 and have the same thing? Sure you could, but what type of note gets one beat can often determine the feel of the music. If something has a quarter note as the basic unit of counting, then I’d expect each beat to get some emphasis, and I’d expect the tempo to be relatively slow. If it has an eigth note as the unit, I’d expect the 8ths to go by fairly quickly and for the measure to be subdivided into major beats. For instance, if something was in 6/4, I’d expect something slow and maybe mysterious. Maybe like the opening strains of The Firebird. (Though I believe it’s actually in 12/8.) If something is in 6/8, I’d expect it to be bright and lively, and counted (and beaten) in two. In fact, that’s pretty much what 6/8 was invented for. Gilbert and Sullivan thrived on it. [/QUOTE] 6/8 is also a traditional time signature for piping tunes. My pipe major laments that modern piping teachers and pipe majors tend to re-frame the old 6/8s into 3/4s to make them easier to teach and play, at the sacrifice of the traditional feel of the rhythm. 9/8 is also used in piping tunes, for longer, more melancholy pieces, such as retreats like the [Battle of the Somme](http://www.cs.uleth.ca/~kaminski/midi/battlesomme.mid) and the [Heights of Dargai](http://www.cs.uleth.ca/~kaminski/midi/heightsdargai.mid). ---
**Author:** ![Apex\_Rogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Apex\_Rogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apex_Rogers)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/63 "2010-04-20T19:41:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’ve seen it notated as 15/8, usually. I’ve always counted it as alternating 4/4 and 7/8, personally. Given where I feel the beats and accent placement are in the main riff, I don’t like calling it three bars of 4/4 and one bar of 3/4. Notating it that way, though it may work, would be a bit odd. You’re right. I must have pulled that analysis from memory, because when I listen to it now I definitely hear it as 4/4 and 7/8 or 15/8. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/64 "2010-04-21T21:29:51Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > There’s this cute anecdote about the first rehearsal of Alexander Borodin’s 1887 _Symphony No. 3 in A Minor_. The scherzo is in 5/8, which the musicians had never encountered before. It had them baffled until the conductor told them to repeat “Rimsky-Korsakov, Rimsky-Korsakov”-- and then they got it! Huh. See, I’d naturally say “Rimsky-Korsakov” in 6/8, so that wouldn’t help me… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/65 "2010-04-22T08:36:19Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Depends on the song. If the major beats in 4/4 are consistently subdivided into triplets by the melody, you can notate it with a triplet [–3–] pattern, which gets kinda clumsy IMHO, or use 12/8 and dispense with the "3"s. A band director would probably beat it as 4 beats to the bar either way. It’s just a matter of fitting the best notation to the situation. I’ve seen a piece of music that used 4/4, notated the triplets at first, but then dropped them off, using the _sim._ as if the triplet markings were just style/tempo/dynamic markings. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Mood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Blue\_Mood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Mood)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/66 "2010-04-22T10:45:21Z")
Sting uses interesting time signatures - for example [Straight to My Heart](http://www.amazon.com/Straight-To-My-Heart/dp/B000W216JA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1271932952&sr=8-1) which is in 7/4 (click on the play button for a sample). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/67 "2010-04-22T11:53:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve seen a piece of music that used 4/4, notated the triplets at first, but then dropped them off, using the _sim._ as if the triplet markings were just style/tempo/dynamic markings. That was probably just a way for the copyist or engraver to avoid some work, much like we used to dispense with key sigs and clefs after the first line on a page unless they changed. With computers doing the work now, abbreviations like that aren’t used as much. One problem with using abbrevs. is if you start reading the piece in the middle, you have to back up first to see what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/68 "2010-04-22T14:35:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve seen a piece of music that used 4/4, notated the triplets at first, but then dropped them off, using the _sim._ as if the triplet markings were just style/tempo/dynamic markings. I’ve seen this several times. As **Musicat** notes, it is weird when leafing through the music, catching the middle of the music where the convention is employed and wondering just how in the hell three eighth notes fit into a quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Haunted\_Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/94ad74/32.png) [@Haunted\_Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haunted_Pasta)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/69 "2010-04-22T17:57:37Z")
I was a band geek, but I never took a music theory class. All of this discussion reminds me that I wish I had. The most bizarre time signature in popular music that I know of is “Turn It On Again” by Genesis- a lot of it’s in 13:8 time. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/70 "2010-04-22T19:31:14Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The Grateful Dead had a long jam instrumental called “The Eleven”, because it was in 11/4. I meant, 11/8 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/71 "2010-04-22T19:45:02Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Huh. See, I’d naturally say “Rimsky-Korsakov” in 6/8, so that wouldn’t help me… 😃 That’s because you speak a stress-timed language, while that orchestra apparently spoke a [syllable-timed](http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/think/knowledge-wiki/syllable-timed-languages) one! ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/72 "2010-04-22T19:52:47Z")
Does anybody know what time signature Gil Evans’ _There Comes a Time_ was in? I once sat around with a group of musicians (several of which were drummers) trying to figure it out. I think our best guess was 37/16 or something crazy like that. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/73 "2010-04-22T20:02:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I think you’re thinking of swing more than shuffle. I should actually correct this–it seems I’m incorrect. “Shuffle” and “swing” can be used synonymously for that rhythm. I’m not sure where I picked it up, but somewhere along the line I’ve associated the dotted eighth-and-sixteenth rhythm with shuffle, and the approximate triplet rhythm with swing. I’ve noticed that [someone else also makes this distinction on another message board](http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95404&start=15), and [here, too,](http://www.activebass.com/default.asp?iTarget=http%3A//www.activebass.com/m636883--Swing-Vs-Shuffle) so I guess I’m not the only one who uses the words in this way. However, looking around the greater web, it seems that most people use shuffle for the triplet feel swing, too. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/74 "2010-04-22T20:05:24Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I should actually correct this–it seems I’m incorrect. “Shuffle” and “swing” can be used synonymously for that rhythm. I’ve always used them interchangeably. And it’s not like my sequencer has a different function for each. You want swing, you press the shuffle button. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/75 "2010-04-22T20:12:38Z")
> [@QuercusMax](#): > > Then you also have time signatures like 6/8, where it’s generally structured as two sets of 3 notes per measure (ONE two three Four five six). In marches, 6/8 are your “bouncy” ones that have an OOOOM-pa OOOOOM-pa feel, as opposed to the more stately ones that are in 2/4. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/76 "2010-04-22T23:23:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’ve seen this several times. As **Musicat** notes, it is weird when leafing through the music, catching the middle of the music where the convention is employed and wondering just how in the hell three eighth notes fit into a quarter. Ah. You see, I always look at the first measure, since that’s where the time signature is. And I do a quick scan through the music to make sure it hasn’t changed. And while I took music theory, most of this stuff is stuff I picked up just by reading the music. Theory is where I learned chord structure and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526/77 "2010-04-23T02:00:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Ah. You see, I always look at the first measure, since that’s where the time signature is. And I do a quick scan through the music to make sure it hasn’t changed. That’s fine, but the time signature is not going to help you with this particular notation. The time signature stays 4/4, it’s just the triplet bracketing stops after a few measures, with the notation “sim.” or something to that effect. So you have the notional 4/4 time signature, it’s just your triplets are no longer indicated as such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures-in-music/536526.md?page=3)