# Time Signatures **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 29, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005 "2003-04-29T21:27:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gypsymoth3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@gypsymoth3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gypsymoth3)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/1 "2003-04-29T21:27:39Z")
why do we never see songs in 5/4 or 5/8 timing? are there any semi-well known pieces in this sig in the united states? someone mentioned (either on this board or another one i go to) that africans (the ones in africa, not america) used more complex beats. what was so complex about them? did they use “odd” time sigs? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/2 "2003-04-29T21:36:17Z")
I think the “Mission: Impossible” theme is 5/4. Dah! Dah! Dah-dah Dah! Dah! Dah-Dah Dah! Dah! D.C. al so on and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![threeorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@threeorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threeorange)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/3 "2003-04-29T21:42:34Z")
Also “Take Five” by the Dave Brubeck Quartet, form the 1960 album “Time Out” which consists mostly of pieces in odd time signatures. Also “Living In the Past” by Jethro Tull, I forget which album. ---
**Author:** ![MajorTom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@MajorTom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MajorTom)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/4 "2003-04-29T22:31:16Z")
Also Afrikaan Beat forgot the artist ---
**Author:** ![William\_Ashbless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a87d85/32.png) [@William\_Ashbless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/William_Ashbless)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/5 "2003-04-29T23:17:18Z")
Bits of Mission:Impossible are indeed in 5/4, and then there’s some transitions from that into 3/2, as well as some more traditional signatures. The piece is a real mess to play. We did it as our signature piece in high school band. And somehow it sounds good. Even when played by a (admittedly pretty well practiced) high school band. But we cursed the whole way. ---
**Author:** ![Eegba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Eegba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eegba)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/6 "2003-04-29T23:18:47Z")
As for the using of “more complex” beats in African music, I believe that refers to the use of polyrhythms. That is where you have someone playing one meter over another: one person plays a bar of 4 while another plays a bar of 3 in the same amount of time for example. You most often hear that sort of thing in pop music when someone plays a quarter-note triplet (three quarter-notes in the space of two). It’s bunches of fun. Adding to the list of pop songs in odd meters, it took me forever to realize that Peter Gabriel’s “Solsbury Hill” was in 7/4, because he wrote the theme so well that it doesn’t seem to be in an odd time. If you want to extend into the not-so-mainstream-but-still-popular end of things, most progressive rock bands use odd time signatures regularly. Yes, Rush, Tool, etc. And Time Out was deliberately put together to be a collection of pieces in odd time signatures, thus the title. ---
**Author:** ![ajlilhammer225](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/cc9497/32.png) [@ajlilhammer225](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajlilhammer225)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/7 "2003-04-30T00:15:38Z")
We are playing Mission Impossible in my high school band rigth now as a matter of fact. It is pretty hard to play though. ---
**Author:** ![gypsymoth3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@gypsymoth3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gypsymoth3)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/8 "2003-04-30T00:24:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eegba \* > **As for the using of “more complex” beats in African music, I believe that refers to the use of polyrhythms. That is where you have someone playing one meter over another: one person plays a bar of 4 while another plays a bar of 3 in the same amount of time for example. You most often hear that sort of thing in pop music when someone plays a quarter-note triplet (three quarter-notes in the space of two). It’s bunches of fun.** for some reason, i hate (playing) triplets. they sound pretty cool tho’. one recent song i kinda like that has that kind of feel is “stupid girl” by cold. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/9 "2003-04-30T00:32:46Z")
Triplets are fine sounding. 5/4 is a royal pain in the ass but it does pop up. One of Rush’s favorite tricks is to alternate 5/4 with 4/4 during bridges. But you’ll never top the charts with it. ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/10 "2003-04-30T00:38:49Z")
The score of Into the Woods (and probably a lot of other Sondheim work) changes time signatures all the time. The opening number is about 15 minutes long and uses everything from 12/8 to 4/4 to 3/4 to 3/2 to 9/8 to 15/8 etc. But that’s rare. Without really knowing if I’m right, I would estimate that less than 10% of the songs the average person hears are anything except 4/4, 2/4, 3/4, or 6/8. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/11 "2003-04-30T01:04:26Z")
Gustav Holst’s **Mars, Bringer of War** is in 5. The finale of Stravinksy’s **The Firebird** is in 7. And the beginning of **Skimbleshanks, the Railway Cat** from **Cats** is in 13. I remember a weird arrangement of British folk music that we played in high school band which had all sorts of wacky key signatures, including things like 1.5/4. ---
**Author:** ![AV8R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AV8R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AV8R)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/12 "2003-04-30T01:17:54Z")
I don’t have the music in front of me, but I believe **Classical Gas** by Mason Williams had some 5/4 measures thrown in for fun. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/13 "2003-04-30T01:22:53Z")
Metallica, baby. Primus. Rush. Also, the obvious Money by Pink Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/14 "2003-04-30T01:56:59Z")
Led Zepplin’s _Black Dog_ has a cool 5/4 bridge. The song is 4/4, but in the bridge the drums keep going at four beats to the measure for five measures while the guitar solo does a five beat riff for four measures. At the end of it they’re all back at the same spot. It has a very interesting feel to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/15 "2003-04-30T02:16:05Z")
Off to Cafe Society. **DrMatrix** - GQ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/li_l_Dickie_Dirtz)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/16 "2003-04-30T02:49:55Z")
Don’t everybody jump on me at once, but didn’t (doesn’t) Burt Bacarach write a lot of non-4/4 stuff? ---
**Author:** ![plastic\_conspiracy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ab097/32.png) [@plastic\_conspiracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plastic_conspiracy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/17 "2003-04-30T03:22:53Z")
As for pop music, here are some examples: Marianne Faithful’s “Something Better” was popular in the 60s and is in 5/4. The Beatles’ “Here Comes The Sun” switches up the time signature a little. The bridge seems to be in 11/8, if I’m hearing it correctly. Radiohead’s “Paranoid Android” has sections in 7/8. Andrew Lloyd Webber used some unusual time signatures throughout _Jesus Christ Superstar_. Some less popular artists that use irregular time signatures are: Poster Children (regularly) Fugazi (occasionally) Ween (occasionally) Primus (regularly–yeah, they were already mentioned, but they deserve another nod) Phish (regularly) Frank Zappa (regularly) The Breeders (occasionally) The Pixies (occasionally–ok, only with a few songs from _Trompe Le Monde_) This is all a very small percentage of what most people listen to, of course. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/18 "2003-04-30T04:50:49Z")
Cat Steven’s “Rubylove” is in a fast 7/8 - you count… ```auto 1-2-3-|1-2-|1-2-| Who'll|be |my | Love? | | | You'll|be |my | Love | | | You'll|be |my | Sky |a- |bove| etc. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/19 "2003-04-30T04:52:53Z")
My favorite 5/4 song? _Living in the Past_ by Jethro Tull. > [@](#): > > Happy and I’m smiling > Walk a mile to drink your water…" My keyboard even has a “5/4 blues” rhythm." Cool sounding beat, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005/20 "2003-04-30T06:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gypsymoth3 \* > \*\*why do we never see songs in 5/4 or 5/8 timing? are there any semi-well known pieces in this sig in the united states? someone mentioned (either on this board or another one i go to) that africans (the ones in africa, not america) used more complex beats. what was so complex about them? did they use “odd” time sigs? \*\* Traditional African (and thus a good deal of Latin American) music is either in duple meter (2/4 or 4/4) or triple meter (3/4), and as someone mentioned, is often polyrhythmic (with one meter superimposed on top of another. This is called _sesquialta_ meter in some Latin American styles, I think). Classical Indian music is loaded with very very complex meters (anything from 5 to 7 to 10 to 11 to, well, I honestly don’t know where it stops, but it’s some pretty damn amazing, and sophisticated stuff). Odd meters don’t show up in Western music, AFAIK, until mid to late 19th century, most commonly with opera where composers would alter meters to fit the rhythms of the text. By the early to mid 20th century every meter and its mom had been tried in the “classical” music world. As far as pop, rock, and jazz, well, the 60’s and 70’s were a time of serious experimentation with that. The Beatle’s _Good Morning_changes\* meter often throughout, though the Beatle’s never really got the hang of odd meters IMHO. Neither did Floyd with their pathetic attempt at a 7 in _Money_. (BTW, I love Floyd, but they were only at home in 4/4). The main riff of Led Zep’s _The Ocean_ is an alternating 8/8 and 7/8, though if you wanted to you could call it a 15/8. As mentioned, the prog rock guys were all over the odd meter thing. Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, Frank Zappa, Rush, etc. all often have very complex time signatures in their music. In jazz, Brubeck, Don Ellis, and Eric Dolphy are a few that experimented (successfully, IMHO) with complex meters. Just like prog rock, fusion in the 70’s also employed a lot of complex time signatures. I don’t think John McLaughlin, and his band Mahavishnu Orchestra, used 4/4 twice in the 70’s. Others: Chick Corea and his band Return to Forever, and Weather Report. Just want to make another honorable mention of Gabriel’s “Solsbury Hill” which is a superb 7, and one of the very few pop songs in an odd meter to really be successful. Odd meters don’t make it into pop easily. The symmetry of 4/4 is much easier for the layperson to comprehend. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-signatures/172005.md?page=2)