# Time to ban neonicotinoid insecticides **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453 "2017-07-03T18:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/1 "2017-07-03T18:23:28Z")
There’s more and more evidence that Colony Collapse Disorder is largely caused by [neonicotinoid insecticides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid). It’s time to have an outright ban on them. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/2 "2017-07-03T20:37:49Z")
From the wiki article linked: > [@](#): > > As of 2013 neonicotinoids have been used In the U.S. on about 95 percent of corn and canola crops, the majority of cotton, sorghum, and sugar beets and about half of all soybeans. They have been used on the vast majority of fruit and vegetables, including apples, cherries, peaches, oranges, berries, leafy greens, tomatoes, and potatoes, to cereal grains, rice, nuts, and wine grapes. That will be quite a change for farmers. If we save the bees but lose the corn crop, that’s not really a worthwhile trade. I’m not saying I love neonicotinoids or anything, but any proposal to do away with them is dead in the water without a similarly effective and similarly priced alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/3 "2017-07-03T20:48:30Z")
Well, not saving the bees will lead to farmers having to self-pollinate massively. They seemed to manage before neonicotinoids somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/4 "2017-07-03T21:10:00Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Well, not saving the bees will lead to farmers having to self-pollinate massively. > > They seemed to manage before neonicotinoids somehow. We also used to manage without factory production. There were fewer people on the planet and life was worse. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/5 "2017-07-03T21:17:32Z")
Theoretically, there’s probably a way to breed/engineer bees that are immune to the insecticide. Depending on the science, that may be the more efficient/cost effective path. No idea, personally. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/6 "2017-07-03T21:48:52Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > We also used to manage without factory production. There were fewer people on the planet and life was worse. Not really the point. There would be very few plants \*at all \*without the bees: not enough to provide as much food as in those dark times. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Theoretically, there’s probably a way to breed/engineer bees that are immune to the insecticide. Depending on the science, that may be the more efficient/cost effective path. No idea, personally. How are you going to distribute these superhero bees ? You need to cover at least 5 continents. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/7 "2017-07-03T22:26:23Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > How are you going to distribute these superhero bees ? You need to cover at least 5 continents. Sell to farmers. If you just need a ramped up queen, then they’d just buy a single new queen and start a new hive on their farm. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/8 "2017-07-04T02:36:15Z")
Should have noted that [Europe is considering a ban](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/europe-poised-for-total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides). They’ve already had a temporary partial ban. If they can do it, so can the US, Canada. and the rest of the world. Not sure what the status of the European ban is; that was about the most recent article I could find on it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/9 "2017-07-04T15:26:55Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > There’s more and more evidence that Colony Collapse Disorder is largely caused by [neonicotinoid insecticides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid). It’s time to have an outright ban on them. The wiki you cite isn’t quite as conclusive as you state. > [@](#): > > A 2012 study showed the presence of thiamethoxam and clothianidin in bees found dead in and around hives situated near agricultural fields. Other bees at the hives exhibited tremors, uncoordinated movement and convulsions, all signs of insecticide poisoning. The insecticides were also consistently found at low levels in soil up to two years after treated seed was planted and on nearby dandelion flowers and in corn pollen gathered by the bees. Insecticide-treated seeds are covered with a sticky substance to control its release into the environment, however they are then coated with talc to facilitate machine planting. This talc may be released into the environment in large amounts. Exhausted talc containing the insecticides is concentrated enough that even small amounts on flowering plants can kill foragers or be transported to the hive in contaminated pollen. Tests also showed that the corn pollen that bees were bringing back to hives tested positive for neonicotinoids at levels roughly below 100 parts per billion, an amount not acutely toxic, but enough to kill bees if sufficient amounts are consumed.[67][clarification needed] > > A 2012 review (Cresswell et al., 2012) concluded that dietary neonicotinoids cannot be implicated in honey bee declines, but this position is provisional because important gaps remain in current knowledge.[68] > > A 2013 review concluded that neonicotinoids, as they are typically used, harm bees and that safer alternatives are urgently needed.[69] An October 2013 study by Italian researchers demonstrated that neonicotinoids disrupt bees’ immune systems, making them susceptible to viral infections to which the bees are normally resistant.[70] > > In April 2015 EASAC conducted a study of the potential effects on organisms providing a range of ecosystem services like pollination and natural pest control which are critical to sustainable agriculture. The resulting report concludes “there is an increasing body of evidence that the widespread prophylactic use of neonicotinoids has severe negative effects on non-target organisms that provide ecosystem services including pollination and natural pest control.”[71] Two studies published in Nature provided further evidence of the deleterious effect of neonicontinoids on bees, although the further research is needed to corroborate the findings: Oilseed rape seed coated with a combination of clothianidin and a pyrethroid “reduced wild bee density, solitary bee nesting, and bumblebee colony growth and reproduction under field conditions”.[72] In a feeding experiment, bees preferred sucrose solutions with imidacloprid or thiamethoxam, even though it “caused them to eat less food overall”.[73] > > An October 2015 study demonstrated significant effects on the survival and reproductive capacities of honey bee queens exposed to neonicotinoids. Those exposed to neonicotinoids had 60% survival rates, as compared to 80% for control groups. Lower worker egg production and alterations to surviving queens’ reproductive anatomy “likely corresponded to reduced queen success (alive and producing worker offspring).” The authors further claim “our study suggests that these substances [i.e., neonicotinoids] are, at least partially, responsible for harming queens and causing population declines of social bee species. Failure of queens exposed to neonicotinoids during development to successfully lay fertilised eggs that subsequently develop into workers or queens is worrisome; both castes are vital to colony survival…”[74] > > A 2015 systematic review (Lundin et al., 2015) of the scientific literature on neonicotinoids and bees concluded that despite considerable research efforts, there are still significant knowledge gaps concerning the impacts of neonicotinoids on bees.[75] > > A review article (Carreck & Ratnieks, 2015) concluded that while laboratory based studies have demonstrated adverse sub-lethal effects of neonicotinoid insecticides on honey bees and bumble bees, these same effects have not been observed in field studies, which is likely due to an overestimation of three key dosage factors (concentration, duration and choice) in many laboratory based studies. According to this account, at least, it seems that studies are somewhat - inconclusive. Certainly several have found that these insecticides are harmful to bees; but others have critiqued these findings - unfortunately the causes of colony collapse disorder aren’t actually well understood; most of these studies seem to be arguing that more study is necessary. It isn’t surprising that an insecticide, in sufficient concentrations, is bad for bees, who are insects; what is more controversial is that this particular one is responsible for a widespread problem like colony collapse. Perhaps a good plan would be to ban them in one large area (say, if Europe is considering a ban) and see if colony collapse disorder stops in the banned area. If it doesn’t, it will be pretty good evidence that this particular insecticide isn’t the problem; if it does, then it will be pretty good evidence that it is, and a ban could be extended. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/10 "2017-07-04T15:36:26Z")
The issue appears to still be controversial. > **[Backlash to flawed 'landmark' European neonicotinoid study: Inconclusive data...](https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/07/03/backlash-flawed-landmark-european-neonicotinoid-study-inconclusive-data-suggest-health-benefits-harm/)** > > Upside down news: A backlash by independent scientists has begun to emerge, challenging sensational accounts of a 'landmark' European field study of bees and neonics that the study authors claim 'proves' neonics are a key driver of bee health... ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/11 "2017-07-04T16:37:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The wiki you cite isn’t quite as conclusive as you state. I never used the word conclusive. I just said the evidence is piling up. But the wikipage has nothing more recent than 2015, which means it hasn’t been updated in a year and a half. There’s been more studies produced in that time. [Here’s an article on two recent ones.](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/06/29/534852611/pesticides-are-harming-bees-but-not-everywhere-major-new-study-shows) That first study shows that the harmful effects aren’t as bad in Germany, but that seem to be because Germany has more wild flowers that the bees visit. As I understand it, the situtation in the US is more like that in England where modern farming techniques reduce the amount of wild flowers. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/12 "2017-07-04T17:35:29Z")
Neonicotinoids make excellent flea control products. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/13 "2017-07-04T17:50:53Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I never used the word conclusive. I just said the evidence is piling up. But the wikipage has nothing more recent than 2015, which means it hasn’t been updated in a year and a half. There’s been more studies produced in that time. [Here’s an article on two recent ones.](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/06/29/534852611/pesticides-are-harming-bees-but-not-everywhere-major-new-study-shows) > > That first study shows that the harmful effects aren’t as bad in Germany, but that seem to be because Germany has more wild flowers that the bees visit. As I understand it, the situtation in the US is more like that in England where modern farming techniques reduce the amount of wild flowers. You didn’t use the word “conclusive”, but you drew a “conclusion” - namely, “time to ban neonicotinoid insecticides”. It isn’t a conclusion that is actually stated in the article you cite, which - once again, is a lot more tentative. > [@](#): > > Nigel Raine, a specialist on bees at the University of Guelph, in Ontario, says that these experiments have helped to fill in details of a picture that scientist still don’t fully understand. “The story for honeybees is complicated, but these two papers, taken together, are kind of the first field-level evidence that there can be measurable impacts on important aspects of colony development and colony survival in the field,” he says. > > The European study, he says, shows just how complicated the picture is. It shows that pesticides like neonicotinoids affect bees, but also reveals the importance of other factors, too. > > “We shouldn’t just focus on insecticides. They’re part of the problem, but if we focus on that and then just say, ‘OK, we understand that now, the problem’s fixed,’ I don’t think that’s right,” Raine says. “We need to be clear about how we’re managing landscapes, both agricultural and urban and more natural landscapes, to support healthy biodiversity of pollinators,” he says. The quoted specialist states that they studies provide the first evidence that there can be impact from these pesticides. He goes on to state that, in his opinion at least, the pesticides are part of the problem - but not the whole story - and appears to be saying that banning the pesticides alone won’t provide a “fix”. Others have noted that the studies have not been conclusive (see the article posted immediately above yours). The problem once again is that the actual causes of the disorder aren’t really understood. It is entirely possible that banning the pesticides won’t actually affect the disorder measurably (it is equally possible that it will!). It seems somewhat premature to base binding agricultural policy on that. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/14 "2017-07-05T16:05:23Z")
Colony collapse disorder [has actually been declining](https://www.epa.gov/pollinator-protection/colony-collapse-disorder) (and has multiple suspected causes, including mites and viral disease). Meantime, honeybee populations [appear to have rebounded](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/10/10/believe-it-or-not-the-bees-are-doing-just-fine/?utm_term=.8ae9847c8c49) in recent years. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/15 "2017-07-05T16:20:06Z")
Would you approve of genetically engineering crops to be resistant to the insects that the neonicotinoids are currently used to control? > [@](#): > > They seemed to manage before neonicotinoids somehow. They managed by using organophosphates, which, in addition to killing insects, do a first rate job of killing mammals, birds, and the[humans who handle them.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493390/) Be careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/16 "2017-07-05T16:22:30Z")
Are all bees suffering from colony collapse, or only honeybees? I ask because honeybees are not a species native to North America, and neither are many of the crops being pollinated. If native bees pollinating native plants are less affected, it might not be such a bad thing for invasive bees pollinating invasive plants to be harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/17 "2017-07-05T16:48:45Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Are all bees suffering from colony collapse, or only honeybees? I ask because honeybees are not a species native to North America, and neither are many of the crops being pollinated. If native bees pollinating native plants are less affected, it might not be such a bad thing for invasive bees pollinating invasive plants to be harmed. One doesn’t usually refer to crop-plants as “invasive,” that’s reserved more for stuff like Scotch Broom and the like. Scotch Broom as an example does have an obligate relationship with bee pollinators, but that includes native bumblebees as well as imported honeybees. Eliminating honeybees may slow its spread, but IMHO losing all our lemons and limes is not worth slowing the spread of a few noxious weeds. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/18 "2017-07-05T17:13:29Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Are all bees suffering from colony collapse, or only honeybees? I ask because honeybees are not a species native to North America, and neither are many of the crops being pollinated. If native bees pollinating native plants are less affected, it might not be such a bad thing for invasive bees pollinating invasive plants to be harmed. Farmers aren’t relying on wild bees pollinating their crops. They hire traveling bee keepers. And since we’re often talking about food crops I don’t see how well “maybe we should just be happy with native bees and plants” is going to persuade anyone. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/19 "2017-07-05T18:38:43Z")
Native bees are on the decline because of habitat distruction and insecticides. Farmers have to bring in bees because they’ve killed off most of the native ones near their fields. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453/20 "2017-07-05T18:54:52Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Native bees are on the decline because of habitat distruction and insecticides. Farmers have to bring in bees because they’ve killed off most of the native ones near their fields. So we should go back to native bees and a hunter/gatherer society? You should type up a proposal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-ban-neonicotinoid-insecticides/790453.md?page=2)