# Time to censor some books, kids. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772 "2004-12-08T17:23:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/61 "2004-12-10T22:17:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nazis were men, created just as equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights as well. Yet we have no problem teaching that their philsophies and actions were odious. We do not - and should not - teach that Nazis were equal and their actions should be tolerated. > > So what scale do I use, one where I place the Nazis on it and the readout says, “May portray negatively,” but when I place Hindus upon it, the readout changes to “May not portray negatively.” My scale has a counter marked “Godwin.” That’s the one I use. C’mon. If it comes to that, I’d be oposed to a teacher teaching that Nazis **weren’t** created equal. We may discuss their **behavior** and criticize it. Why not criticize the behavior of homosexuals? Because it’s not our business. We criticize the Nazi behavior precisely because it was behavior that alienated inalienable rights. Homosexuality does not do that. Again, this isn’t a place for compromise. A system which forbids a teacher from teaching that we must respect homosexuals is an inherently flawed system, inasmuch as it leads to an inherently flawed decision. I can’t believe you’re such the moral relativist, **Bricker**. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/62 "2004-12-10T22:21:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I can’t believe you’re such the moral relativist, **Bricker**. I’m not remotely a moral relativist. I don’t agree with or support the parents in this example - thus my frequent reference to the Devil’s Advocate role above. But in that role, I’m askign a quesiton that deserves an answer: other than simply going to Daniel for the answer, what is the system we should use? (I’m sure you’re able to supply excellent service in this area,but what if you’re on vacation?) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/63 "2004-12-10T22:22:15Z")
One more note: on issues where there’s room for compromise, the tie should go to the teacher, with the parents having the right to remove their kids from the classroom in some cases. The school board should only interfere when the teacher’s conduct is egregious. Thus, I would not have supported a schoolboard censure of my high school history teacher who argued that slavery was the best thing that ever happened to Africans, or that Native Americans should thank the white man every day for being introduced to Jesus. But I would have supported a censure of my high school math teacher who refused to read any daily announcements that pertained to my high school occultism club that I started. And I would have supported a censure of a teacher who had told students (for example) that they may not speak approvingly of Christianity in their papers on American history, because religion was the opiate of the masses. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/64 "2004-12-10T22:24:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not remotely a moral relativist. I don’t agree with or support the parents in this example - thus my frequent reference to the Devil’s Advocate role above. > > But in that role, I’m askign a quesiton that deserves an answer: other than simply going to Daniel for the answer, what is the system we should use? (I’m sure you’re able to supply excellent service in this area,but what if you’re on vacation?) Again, the Declaration provides a nice benchmark: is the teacher’s behavior promoting basic American values of freedom and equality, or is the teacher’s behavior squelching those basic American values? Also, if I’m on vacation, I’ll still be checking my e-mail :). Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/65 "2004-12-10T22:26:21Z")
You’re proposing a system that teaches and encourages tolerance, because… we should teach and encourage tolerance. But when I ask you WHY that should be the rule, you don’t answer – you merely repeat and provide examples that support tolerance. If I say that tolerance is NOT the right answer – that there are groups, behaviors, and beliefs we should not teach tolerance for – you disagree, because tolerance is the best thing to teach. It’s a circular argument. Defend the position that tolerance for all is, objectively, the right thing to teach. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/66 "2004-12-10T22:31:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re proposing a system that teaches and encourages tolerance, because… we should teach and encourage tolerance. But when I ask you WHY that should be the rule, you don’t answer – you merely repeat and provide examples that support tolerance. Not precisely. I say we should do it because a respect for everyone’s freedom and equality is a bedrock principle on which our nation was founded. Are you asking me ot defend the idea that freedom and equality are good? Are you saying this isn’t self-evident? Hell, I’ll throw brotherhood into the mix as a good value, even if that trio doesn’t lead to as good a revolution. I think that respect for everyone’s freedom and equality pretty much translates into tolerance for folks that aren’t impinging on freedom and equality. Tolerating doesn’t mean approving; it just means not getting in the way of. It’s the necessary counterpoint to freedom. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/67 "2004-12-10T22:34:54Z")
OK - as a side note, the Declaration of Independence is not considered a source of substantive law in the legal world. But that’s not relevant to this discussion: you’re proposing that it be the objective benchmark. But I assume you have a problem with my teaching a class of fourth graders that they were endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, and that Nature’s God entitles them to certain stations. I also point out that the DoI, justifying our independence from the British, was not thought to be in conflict with the institution of slavery, with a world in which only men could vote, with many other social structures with which you likely do not approve. If we’re using the Declaration as our guide, how do we resolve those inconsistencies? (When you’re on vacation, that is…) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/68 "2004-12-10T22:39:27Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Not precisely. I say we should do it because a respect for everyone’s freedom and equality is a bedrock principle on which our nation was founded. Then how was it we had legal slavery until 1867? How was it women didn’t vote until 1913? > [@](#): > > Are you asking me ot defend the idea that freedom and equality are good? Are you saying this isn’t self-evident? As general concepts, they are hard to reject. But if you contend that they literally mean that every single human being must be treated equally, then I vehemently disagree. What I want you to defend is your implementation of this principle. Yoou’re ok with treating some human beings differently. I’m ok with treating some human beings differently. But we seem to disagree on who can be on the list, and to what extent they can be treated differently. Since you and I are in conflict on this point, I’m asking you how we may resolve this conflict. So far, the only concrete proposal you’ve offered is sabres at dawn. I agree that’s a definitive system for resolving the conflict… but I suspect you’re not seriously advancing it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/69 "2004-12-10T22:39:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I assume you have a problem with my teaching a class of fourth graders that they were endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, and that Nature’s God entitles them to certain stations. Fair point. I’ll have to think about that. Meanwhile, let me ask: do you think that a respect for differences, a respect for liberty, and a respect for equality are core values in our culture? Do you think that the idea that these rights come from our Creator is a core value in our culture? Do you think the United States can function as a pluralistic society without that respect? Do you think the United States can function as a pluralistic society without that belief in a Creator? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/70 "2004-12-10T22:49:16Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Fair point. I’ll have to think about that. Meanwhile, let me ask: do you think that a respect for differences, a respect for liberty, and a respect for equality are core values in our culture? As general propositions? Yes. As applied specifically to X? Dunno - what’s X? > [@](#): > > Do you think that the idea that these rights come from our Creator is a core value in our culture? Yes. > [@](#): > > Do you think the United States can function as a pluralistic society without that respect? As general propositions? Yes. As applied specifically to Y? Dunno - what’s Y? > [@](#): > > Do you think the United States can function as a pluralistic society without that belief in a Creator? No. I realize that may be shocking, but, in fact, I don’t believe so - and that’s not Rick-With-the-Devil’s-Advocate-Hat talking, that’s Rick. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/71 "2004-12-10T23:24:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nazis were men, created just as equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights as well. Yet we have no problem teaching that their philsophies and actions were odious. We do not - and should not - teach that Nazis were equal and their actions should be tolerated. > > So what scale do I use, one where I place the Nazis on it and the readout says, “May portray negatively,” but when I place Hindus upon it, the readout changes to “May not portray negatively.” How about the Golden Rule? Hindus do not, generall speaking, insist that everyone else on the planet be a Hindu or else. Neither do homosexuals. Nazis… not so much. Being a Hindu, or a homo, or a Christian, does not hurt anyone else. Wether or not it is harmful to the individual Hindu/homo/Christian is besides the point. If I’m not hurting anyone else, then it’s no one’s business if I’m hurting myself. I’m a big believer in the principle that, if someone isn’t trying to fuck with me, I don’t have any right to fuck with them. I think that’s pretty much the only way a diverse, multicultural, allegedly free society like out own can possibly function without flying apart at the seams. More importantly, it’s a philosophy based on a principle that applies equally to everyone: self-interest. We teach tolerance because no one wants to be the victim of intolerance. And the group that’s on top today might be on the bottom of the heap tomorrow, which means that it is everybody’s interest to promote tolerance of those who are different or unpopular or uncommon, as a bulwark against the day they find themselves in that position. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/72 "2004-12-11T02:02:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m a big believer in the principle that, if someone isn’t trying to fuck with me, I don’t have any right to fuck with them. I think that’s pretty much the only way a diverse, multicultural, allegedly free society like out own can possibly function without flying apart at the seams. More importantly, it’s a philosophy based on a principle that applies equally to everyone: self-interest. We teach tolerance because no one wants to be the victim of intolerance. And the group that’s on top today might be on the bottom of the heap tomorrow, which means that it is everybody’s interest to promote tolerance of those who are different or unpopular or uncommon, as a bulwark against the day they find themselves in that position. That’s a reasonable position, of course. But what if the response is, "Not to worry: we don’t intend on being on the bottom at all. Therefore, we don’t need to hedge bets by conceding ground now. So rather than adopt your strategy, we intend to simply exercise dominance, since, after all, our position is correct. " ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/73 "2004-12-11T02:53:55Z")
That’s when you beat them with clubs. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772/74 "2004-12-13T14:08:15Z")
OKay, I’ve thought about your question some more. I gotta confess, in some ways I feel like I’ve ranted about a drunk driver and you’ve said, “Yeah? Well, if you’re so smart, how do YOU think they should design cars?” That said, what mechanism should you use to decide on which parental requests to honor and which to dismiss? _Your conscience_. I use mine, and you use yours. That’s really all there is. What mechanism should society use? _Voting_. I retract my earlier coments about revolution: although I think this school board’s actions go against the best impulses of our country, ceding ground to our country’s worst impulses, they do it in a relatively trivial fashion. AIn’t worth shedding blood over this, when I think about it seriously instead of flippantly. But again: although you should use your conscience, and we should use our democracy, to make the decisions, that doesn’t mean that I’ll be satisfied with any decision made. People’s consciences, and elections, make shitty decisions all the time. The fact that the car’s not perfectly designed won’t keep me from ranting about the drunk behind the wheel. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-censor-some-books-kids/278772.md?page=3)