# Time to change 2nd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2012, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102 "2012-12-15T10:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/221 "2012-12-19T17:47:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The AR15 is very usable for self-defense So is a hand grenade. If your actual purpose is to have a weapon against an intruder in your home, something capable of stopping but not necessarily killing him, is the AR15 really going to be your first choice, though? Or even a good one? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/222 "2012-12-19T17:49:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > How often do you think a _sight_ is necessary in home defense situations? Seeing that with a pistol or a shotgun the target you need to hit to immediately stop an attack is about the size of your fist quite a bit. A firearm is not a magic talisman that destroys everything it touches. A pistol or a shotgun is more like a long distance drill, unless you hit a very small target it will not stop the threat in any time period that is relevant to a self defense situation. I do not currently carry, I was forced to carry for a short time in my life due to a violent stalker. During that time I took training at law enforcement centric schools for both pistols and rifles. They dedicated a significant amount time in these classes to drive this point home. The spread of the shot from a shotgun at in home defense distances is tiny, even with them accuracy is critical. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/223 "2012-12-19T17:56:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So is a hand grenade. If your actual purpose is to have a weapon against an intruder in your home, something capable of stopping but not necessarily killing him, is the AR15 really going to be your first choice, though? Or even a good one? Nice hyperbole, if you use deadly force to try to stop anyone your first concern isn’t if it will stop but not kill them. If you use ANY force capable of killing them you have to assume your actions will kill them. At that point it is best to use the best tool that is most likely to stop the attack. And no, using a firearm it would be my LAST choice, because like most humans I have no desire to kill anyone. I would view the need to use any form of deadly force as a negitive event in my life. Are you interested in even debating your side or are you just going to make absurd arguments? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/224 "2012-12-19T18:54:18Z")
Moi? I’m merely pointing out the uselessness, or absurdity since you bring up the word, of defending the AR-15 or weapons like it as being “useful” for self-defense. That isn’t their primary intended purpose, _as you surely know_, and it’s “absurd” of you to even mention the possibillity. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/225 "2012-12-19T19:00:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Moi? I’m merely pointing out the uselessness, or absurdity since you bring up the word, of defending the AR-15 or weapons like it as being “useful” for self-defense. > > That isn’t their primary intended purpose, _as you surely know_, and it’s “absurd” of you to even mention the possibillity. OK, so you are going to dismiss my claims with no cite or information or even argument. It is quite clear you have no real argument to add to this debate or are refusing to admit your unsubstantiated claims were wrong. Pure dismissal is not a valid debate tactic. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/226 "2012-12-19T19:23:01Z")
That’s what happens on this board when you post something absurd, friend. It gets pointed out. Often even laughed at. The question is what, or whether, you’ll learn from the experience. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/227 "2012-12-19T19:27:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s what happens on this board when you post something absurd, friend. It gets pointed out. Often even laughed at. > > The question is what, or whether, you’ll learn from the experience. And why is using an ar15 for home defense absurd, once again your argument totally lacks any substance. The AR15 is well accepted and respected as a defensive firearm. [http://www.insightstraining.com/view\_course.asp?courseID=9](http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=9) Even with people with more credentials than a straightdope login. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/228 "2012-12-19T19:53:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s what happens on this board when you post something absurd, friend. It gets pointed out. Often even laughed at. > > The question is what, or whether, you’ll learn from the experience. O tempora! O mores! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/229 "2012-12-19T19:56:05Z")
Yeah, they’re just so \*cute \*at that age, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/230 "2012-12-19T20:12:46Z")
No firearm is guaranteed to “stop” rather than kill, so saying the AR-15 is comparable to an uncontrollable area weapon like a handgrenade, and that it’s useless because it has little chance of “sparing” the intruder is absurd. You could try pepper spray or a taser, but those aren’t guaranteed even to always stop someone. Face it, there’s no magic “set phasers to stun” weapon currently available. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/231 "2012-12-19T20:22:48Z")
So, **Lumpy** , if \*you \*were looking for a weapon to stop an intruder in your bedroom, what would \*you \*choose? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/232 "2012-12-19T20:28:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So, **Lumpy** , if \*you \*were looking for a weapon to stop an intruder in your bedroom, what would \*you \*choose? :dubious: A condom? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/233 "2012-12-19T20:28:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So, **Lumpy** , if \*you \*were looking for a weapon to stop an intruder in your bedroom, what would \*you \*choose? :dubious: Another post with zero debate content…amazing. (and sad) ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/234 "2012-12-19T20:38:18Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It constantly amazes me that every time (EVERY time) we have something like this tragedy happen the gun grabbers come out of the woodwork to try and justify their world view that we need to ban guns and change the 2nd Amendment. Doesn’t it get old, and don’t ya’ll knees get tired of all the jerking around on this stuff? A) We “gun grabbers” always want to ban guns, not just after tragedies. The tragedies just happen to bring the conversation to the forefront. If it would make you feel better, we can start a thread on it every week, even if nothing bad happens. B) You know what gets old? People dying from gun massacres. And pro-gun people telling me that the people murdered are statistically insignificant. And pro-gun people pretending that if there were no guns it would still happen. And pro-gun people telling me we should ban alcohol first. And every other stupid hand-wavy defense people come up with to justify something that is not needed and causes this bullshit to happen every 6 months. C) Yes we know, its never going to happen. Americans love their guns. They also loved George W. Bush (for a spell). Americans are stupid, some of us just wish they weren’t. Hey, we can dream, can’t we? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/235 "2012-12-19T20:48:03Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > B) You know what gets old? People dying from gun massacres. And pro-gun people telling me that the people murdered are statistically insignificant. And pro-gun people telling me we should ban alcohol first. And every other stupid hand-wavy defense people come up with to justify something that is not needed and causes this bullshit to happen every 6 months. Are fire or explosive massacres less worse? How about the 15000+ murders that are ignored because most of them are not large numbers of cute white kids? Why no outrage to fix the mental health system, to reduce crime and poverty? That is my frustration. People are willing to hand the control of the legislature to the other side for years to pass feel good laws that do little to reduce the massive amount of suffering that is happening in the world and which would have done little to nothing to stop the mass murder that sparked their outrage. People will go on gun banning crusades and risk the forward movement in socialized medicine and improved gay/women’s rights just so that they can quiet their statistically irrational fears about rampage killers. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/236 "2012-12-19T20:51:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Are fire or explosive massacres less worse? How about the 15000+ murders that are ignored because most of them are not large numbers of cute white kids? > > Why no outrage to fix the mental health system, to reduce crime and poverty? > > That is my frustration. People are willing to hand the control of the legislature to the other side for years to pass feel good laws that do little to reduce the massive amount of suffering that is happening in the world and which would have done little to nothing to stop the mass murder that sparked their outrage. > > People will go on gun banning crusades and risk the forward movement in socialized medicine and improved gay/women’s rights just so that they can quiet their statistically irrational fears about rampage killers. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a “gun-grabber” who isn’t in favor of all those things. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/237 "2012-12-19T20:51:33Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why no outrage to fix the mental health system, to reduce crime and poverty? Wait. You think the majority of people who are for more gun control don’t care about crime and poverty? Seriously? If you look at how these issues break down, politically, I think you’ll find an extremely strong correlation between concern about poverty and concern about guns. You’ll find that the Republican party as a whole is opposed to doing anything about guns AND opposed to anti-poverty programs. No outrage? You’ve got to be joking. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/238 "2012-12-19T20:56:13Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Yes we know, its never going to happen. That’s only true if we accept that view. **XT** , don’t \*you \*ever get tired of innocent people getting killed? Most of the rest of us certainly do. Got any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/239 "2012-12-19T20:56:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Wait. You think the majority of people who are for more gun control don’t care about crime and poverty? Seriously? If you look at how these issues break down, politically, I think you’ll find an extremely strong correlation between concern about poverty and concern about guns. You’ll find that the Republican party as a whole is opposed to doing anything about guns AND opposed to anti-poverty programs. > > No outrage? You’ve got to be joking. Why call for gun laws at this time? Why not “spend” the moral outrage for this event on something which could reduce the chances of happening again. Just look at great debates, where are the threads about making a constitutional amendment to reduce the standard for involuntary commitment? Where are the threads about reducing the stigma of mental health treatment? Are the just lost among the threads started by those who don’t even have a basic knowledge about the items they are calling for broad bans on? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/240 "2012-12-19T20:58:05Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why call for gun laws at this time? Why not “spend” the moral outrage for this event on something which could reduce the chances of happening again. That’s exactly what we \*are \*doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102.md?page=13)