# Time to change 2nd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2012, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102 "2012-12-15T10:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/21 "2012-12-15T15:31:44Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > This happens. States already do. Connecticut does. And especially rate of fire, this has been highly restricted since **1934**. Most of the laws concerning this ban stupid stuff, like cosmetic or functional features that don’t make them more dangerous. Interesting you mention caliber though, most “assault weapons” laws target rifles with small to medium calibers. > > This happens. [BAM](http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf)! (pdf). Lines 11b - 11i. Federal. > > This happens. Indirectly, more populous states or cities enact more restrictive laws. Some do it related to high crime. Hence Las Vegas being more restrictive than the rest of NV, or Chicago having more laws than IL. > > So basically you are proposing creating a law that doesn’t actually fix the problem it tries to solve. Are you saying that sales at gun shows between private parties are regulated in the same way that you describe above? If so, why the outrage at gun shows? ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/22 "2012-12-15T15:33:36Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > What was it about this guy that made his ownership/possession of weapon/s “unreasonable”? > > Fwiw, I don’t quite understand how a “militia” is going to save the country from Apache helicopters, drones, stealth bombers, and a military machine that spends more money than the rest of the world put together? I also don’t quite grasp why the USA needs that potential “militia” when the rest of the industrialised, democratic world appears to get by on democratic procedure. Doesn’t Switzerland, the country of neutrality, have a militia made up of all male citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/23 "2012-12-15T15:38:19Z")
> [@denquixote](#): > > Doesn’t Switzerland, the country of neutrality, have a militia made up of all male citizens? A _very well trained_ militia, and a strict control of ammo. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/24 "2012-12-15T15:41:04Z")
It’s not a militia. It’s a conscript army. They do have a militia too but it doesn’t _do_ anything. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/25 "2012-12-15T15:47:51Z")
Sort of akin to closing the gate after the horse has bolted, isn’t it? Even if you amended tomorrow, laid down country wide restrictions, withdrew almost all carry permits, or outright banned guns or ammo, by the end of the week. I don’t think it’s really going to make a change for the foreseeable future. Not only are there already a shit load of guns already out there, people have been allowed to acquire virtual arsenals for personal use. Much more importantly gun culture runs wide and deep through the American culture and psyche. It won’t be as simple as changing some words on paper. The people who have armed themselves are the very ones least likely to surrender or abide by any restrictions. It’s all too easy to think that maybe this is how your great social experiment ends. That whole ‘cold dead hands’ mentality, doused in blind patriotism and all set aflame by the craven polarization experienced, (nay perfected, for profit mind you!), over the last couple of decades seem to have brought you to a place where no compromise is ever possible, between the drawn sides. Part of me thinks people who have guns want to use them, and will, when they feel threatened. And they already feel threatened. In their eyes their very way of life, marriage, fetus’, Christmas, Christianity, are all being actively attacked. I’m just saying, even with a compromiser in the White House, you still got nothing happening on things as important as the fiscal cliff. The right might soon feel justified in pulling out it’s guns to start fighting for it’s life like a treed animal. It could get real ugly. Your cousins to the north weep to see this horror afflict you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/26 "2012-12-15T16:12:45Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > There is no doubt in my mind that had that gunman entered that school with a normal handgun, or even multiple handguns, that a number of people would have been killed. But that number would not be 26. You don’t seem to know much about handguns, do you? Can you give me an example – in your mind – of a normal handgun? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/27 "2012-12-15T16:15:39Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Great. That’s way too fast. In 1791, when the second amendment was written, guns couldn’t fire at anything approaching this speed. > > These guns were only legal because our laws currently suck. In 1791, “The Press,” was not distributed to millions electronically at the touch of a few buttons. Is that also up for discussion? ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/28 "2012-12-15T16:26:28Z")
Informative and pretty at the same time - in case you miss it, there’s also a drop down at top left: > **[The gun ownership and gun homicides murder map of the world](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map)** > > Which countries in the world have the highest firearms murders - and the highest rates of gun ownership? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/29 "2012-12-15T16:45:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In 1791, “The Press,” was not distributed to millions electronically at the touch of a few buttons. > > Is that also up for discussion? Sure, it’s up for discussion. If you want to argue that the Constitution needs to be amended so that freedom of the press is defined as only covering the written word, have at it. (Although to be polite, you should start a separate thread for that discussion.) One thing I think the authors of the Constitution were quite clear on was that they expected future generations to update the Constitution. Personally, I’d counter-argue that the changes in firearm technology is not equivalent to the changes in media technology. While television, radio, and the internet have greatly changed the reach of the “press” I don’t feel they’ve changed its fundamental function from what the press did in the eighteenth century. But I don’t think a fire-arm in 2012 has the same meaning that it did in 1789 - I feel that fire-arms technology has changed so radically that the fundamental function of fire-arms is no longer the same as it was when the Second Amendment was enacted and that the Second Amendment should be repealed to reflect this change. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/30 "2012-12-15T16:52:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > If guns are banned, period, they would become much harder to obtain illegally. Yes, just like drugs. Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/31 "2012-12-15T17:03:26Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Yes, just like drugs. > > Oh, wait. I hate this argument. You can grow drugs in your backyard, in your garage, hell, in your bedroom closet. It’s much, much harder to manufacture firearms–and doing so on a huge scale is really hard to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/32 "2012-12-15T17:03:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > and that the Second Amendment should be repealed to reflect this change. I really hope the Democratic Party runs on this in the next election. They’ll be voted out in record numbers, gridlock in Washington will be over, debt reduction/tax reform will go forward, and liberals won’t be in power for another 30 years. Maybe longer. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/33 "2012-12-15T17:09:42Z")
One well placed bullet would have ended that shooters rampage at the school. Security guards are becoming more common at schools. I wish that school would have had them. Taking away guns doesn’t stop highly disturbed people. China had 22 kids injured yesterday by a sicko attacking a school using a knife. Disturbed people will find some weapon even if it is just a tree branch. [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/34 "2012-12-15T17:10:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think there’s ever been a mass shooting where the killer built his own gun from scratch. Every illegally owned gun was a legally owned gun at some point in its history. So when you control legal guns you’re also controlling illegal guns. An interesting quote from an op-ed in the NYT: “Every country has a sizable contingent of mentally ill citizens. We’re the one that gives them the technological power to play god.” ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/35 "2012-12-15T17:10:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think there’s ever been a mass shooting where the killer built his own gun from scratch. Every illegally owned gun was a legally owned gun at some point in its history. So when you control legal guns you’re also controlling illegal guns. The worst mass murder committed in the United States was the Happyland social Club where 87 people were murdered. He used a container he found on the street, which he filled with gasoline. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy\_Land\_fire](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire) You don’t need sophisticated weapons if you want to kill a lot people. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/36 "2012-12-15T17:13:39Z")
There is no real reason to change the second amendment, people saying that are ignorant of the constitutional situation and are blaming an intractable political/cultural problem on a legal document. We could adopt the exact same gun control laws as Germany, or even the United Kingdom and it would not run afoul of the Second Amendment. Heller just said there is an individual right to gun ownership and we can’t prohibit it with **blanket bans** , it did not say you couldn’t regulate gun ownership. In fact it specifically said it wasn’t saying you couldn’t regulate gun ownership. Now, if we actually adopted say, United Kingdom style gun laws which very tightly control gun ownership I can’t predict how a court would rule. But there is no compelling precedent that strict regulations are unconstitutional, only that blanket bans are. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/37 "2012-12-15T17:21:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > If guns are banned, period, they would become much harder to obtain illegally. There is no evidence control such a degree is materially beneficial over more reasonable gun control. Germany, Norway, United Kingdom, Canada etc all have very, very low gun homicide rates and allow reasonable gun ownership (I’d argue the UK isn’t quite reasonable, but more reasonable than complete bans.) Really in the Western world I do not know of any country that has a complete ban. Most complete ban countries are dictatorships or in Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/38 "2012-12-15T17:29:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You don’t seem to know much about handguns, do you? > > Can you give me an example – in your mind – of a normal handgun? I don’t know fuck all about guns, and I have no urge to. What I know is that legally obtained guns can hold too many bullets and fire them too quickly. Is there a way that (legal) guns can be limited to six bullets, require a skilled artisan one minute to reload an additional six bullets, and a skilled artisan can fire those bullets at no more than one per ten seconds? Anything more than that becomes illegal. Let’s start there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/39 "2012-12-15T17:34:25Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > I hate this argument. You can grow drugs in your backyard, in your garage, hell, in your bedroom closet. It’s much, much harder to manufacture firearms–and doing so on a huge scale is really hard to hide. What percent of cocaine sold in the US is grown in someone’s backyard in the US? Correct me if I’m wrong, but mass killings like this happen in much of the Western World, no? The unique thing about the US is killings in street fights or other type of “one-on-one” violence where the victim and killer often know each other. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/40 "2012-12-15T17:36:33Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Is there a way that (legal) guns can be limited to six bullets, require a skilled artisan one minute to reload an additional six bullets, and a skilled artisan can fire those bullets at no more than one per ten seconds? Only if you have a time machine, magic powerful enough to change the laws of physics, and a nation of idiots to vote you into power. Fortunately, none of those things exist, and the Second Amendment does. So your radical agenda is largely an exercise in pissing in the wind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102.md?page=3)