# Time to change 2nd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2012, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102 "2012-12-15T10:46:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/121 "2012-12-16T18:16:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s an archaic relic of a bygone time which has become an actual impediment to advancing the progress of civilization. Repeal the fucker, and get it out of the way. Pretty much what early 20th century progressives said about alcohol, religion, private property, the family, and everything else that was in the way of their shining vision of a scientifically designed civilization. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/122 "2012-12-16T18:20:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I was posting in response to someone claiming that guns have “only one purpose”. Do they? I was knocking down your strawman, as if you have any other pro-Second arguments. Do you? **Lumpy** : Cites? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/123 "2012-12-16T18:22:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How often? And how often are they used to massacre innocents, by comparison? To answer your questions a bit more precisely: There are about 10,000 murders using guns in United States annually. [http://saf.org/LawReviews/SouthwickJr1.htm](http://saf.org/LawReviews/SouthwickJr1.htm) Different tests of the hypothesis that guns in the hands of civilians reduce crime have been tested herein. In addition, it was attempted to quantify the effects. First was a look at the rate of justifiable homicide by civilians in Section 2. Using deterrence effects of executions found by others, this was extended to justifiable homicides. The result was an estimate of an incentive effect (deterrence) \*\*of from **0.4 to 1.4 million fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns. That included from 2,200 to 7,900 fewer murders per year, implying that the murder rate would have been some 10 to 37 percent higher than it actually was had civilians not had guns for self- defense. … It was reasonable to infer that over 740,000 fewer violent crimes occur each year, including 7,300 fewer murders, because of handgun ownership and use by civilians. Again, this is a deterrent effect. … Somewhere around 0.8 to 2.0 million violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians. In addition, another 1.5 to 2.5 million crimes are stopped by armed civilians. There may be some overlap in these two categories because of the ways in which the data are collected, but t**here are almost certainly some two to four million fewer completed crimes \*\*each year as the result of civilian gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/124 "2012-12-16T18:26:58Z")
“A deterrent effect” that be “inferred”. Wonderful. :rolleyes: The massacres of innocents are real. Where are the _actual_ attempted crimes that are foiled by \*actual \*pistolpackers? If that were common, even the lamestream media would report them once in a while, wouldn’t they? So where are they? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/125 "2012-12-16T18:31:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Lumpy** : Cites? :dubious: It’s a long read but take a look at the original novel by H.G. Wells of [The Shape of Things to Come](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301391h.html). This was Wells’s vision of the future of society, shared by many others at the time. Pretty much it’s about saying “to hell with the regressives’ bleating about ‘freedom’”. It’s not too far off from what Vladimir Lenin thought the Soviet Union was going to be. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/126 "2012-12-16T18:34:28Z")
Two armed men stormed into a Dollar General store one evening and attempted to rob it. While the men held the store manager at gunpoint, a 57-year-old man carrying a concealed .45 cal. handgun, who had been shopping at the store at the time of the robbery, took action. The customer did not hesitate to draw his gun and fire at the suspects. One of the men robbing the store suffered fatal wounds to the head, chest and shoulder. The second suspect fled, but was later caught and charged with robbery and felony murder. There were reportedly no other injuries. (The Florida Times-Union, Jacksonville, FL, 8/29/12) ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/127 "2012-12-16T18:35:42Z")
Scott Stith was in his bedroom when he heard a loud crash coming from the first floor of his home. He grabbed his .45 cal. pistol and crept downstairs to investigate. He spotted the silhouette of a man, but did not fire because he had teenage sons in the house and was not 100 percent sure of his target. He called out only to discover the man was an intruder who had broken through the glass of the back door. Stith held the 29-year-old intruder at gunpoint until police arrived. Everyone involved was reportedly unharmed. (Sandusky Register., Milan, OH, 9/29/12) ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/128 "2012-12-16T18:36:57Z")
Just before 2 a.m., a 25-year-old man shot another man in the head at Bonnie’s Food and Spirits after he was asked to leave. He then fatally shot another customer outside the pub. When he pointed his pistol at Mark Ktytor, however, Ktytor produced his own firearm and fired multiple rounds, leaving the assailant in critical condition. The suspect will be charged with criminal homicide and attempted homicide upon his release from the hospital. (The Times-Tribune, Plymouth, PA, 9/11/12) ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/129 "2012-12-16T18:37:59Z")
Brianne Rodriguez heard a knock at her front door just before 9 a.m., but ignored it. A few minutes later, Rodriguez heard loud noises coming from her bedroom. When she went to investigate, she discovered a man wearing a ski mask in her home. The confrontation led to a struggle and Rodriguez was pushed to the floor and kicked in the face and ribs. The masked man then grabbed her screaming 2-year-old daughter and bolted for the door. Rodriguez quickly retrieved a shotgun she kept in her bedroom and followed. Upon seeing the gun, the man dropped the child and fled. He escaped with Rodriguez’s purse and some jewelry, but Rodriguez and her daughter sustained no serious injuries. (KSEE 24 NEWS, Fresno County, CA, 8/28/12) ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/130 "2012-12-16T18:38:59Z")
Shall I continue? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/131 "2012-12-16T18:39:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “A deterrent effect” that be “inferred”. Wonderful. :rolleyes: > > The massacres of innocents are real. Where are the _actual_ attempted crimes that are foiled by \*actual \*pistolpackers? If that were common, even the lamestream media would report them once in a while, wouldn’t they? So where are they? [http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/police:-pizza-delivery-man-fights-back-after-being-ambushed,-kills-robber](http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/police:-pizza-delivery-man-fights-back-after-being-ambushed,-kills-robber) > **[Minnesota man killed in Monday altercation](https://columbustelegram.com/news/local/article_4e0742ac-3914-11e0-8c90-001cc4c002e0.html)** > > A Minnesota man was killed early Monday morning in rural Nance County, west of Belgrade, according to Nance County Attorney/Coroner Rodney M. Wetovick. [http://articles.chicagobreakingnews.com/2011-02-14/news/28536255\_1\_pharmacist-critical-condition-surveillance-tapes](http://articles.chicagobreakingnews.com/2011-02-14/news/28536255_1_pharmacist-critical-condition-surveillance-tapes) [http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/may/23/south-knox-store-clerk-shoots-man-botched-robbery/](http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/may/23/south-knox-store-clerk-shoots-man-botched-robbery/) > **[Clerk Shot in Botched Liquor Store Robbery in Highland](https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/man-wounded-botched-robbery-liquor-store-highland-san-bernardino-county/1940421/)** > > A liquor store clerk was shot and wounded during a botched stick-up in Highland and deputies released surveillance video with the hope of identifying the gunmen. [https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-departments/true-stories/clerk-shoots-man-in-attempted-robbery/](https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-departments/true-stories/clerk-shoots-man-in-attempted-robbery/) [http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/crime&id=7960513](http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/crime&id=7960513) [http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/pistol-packing-pastor-thwarts-church-thief-15149547](http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/pistol-packing-pastor-thwarts-church-thief-15149547) [http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/02/would-be-robber.html](http://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/02/would-be-robber.html) [http://standardspeaker.com/news/home-invasion-intruder-killed-1.1102011](http://standardspeaker.com/news/home-invasion-intruder-killed-1.1102011) … how many do you need? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/132 "2012-12-16T19:32:22Z")
Yes, it happens sometimes, that isn’t in doubt. The fact that you have to resort to listing _individual events_ proves the point, however. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/133 "2012-12-16T19:35:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, it happens sometimes, that isn’t in doubt. The fact that you have to resort to listing _individual events_ proves the point, however. ROFLMAO. First you imply it doesn’t happen. When pwned with multiple examples, you move the goalposts and claim victory. Typical gun grabber tactics. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/134 "2012-12-16T19:35:30Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It’s a long read but take a look at the original novel by H.G. Wells of [The Shape of Things to Come](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301391h.html). I have. Yes, fascism had a great attraction in the interwar period, and it’s not a complete stretch to call its adherents “progressive” although you’d be in the minority. But your claim was about “early 20th century progressives” _in general_, as if you were trying to make a useful point about either the 21st century or progressives. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/135 "2012-12-16T19:36:50Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > ROFLMAO. First you imply it doesn’t happen. Then go back and read again, as slowly as necessary. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Typical gun grabber tactics. Typical preadolescent argument tactics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/136 "2012-12-16T19:41:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, it happens sometimes, that isn’t in doubt. The fact that you have to resort to listing _individual events_ proves the point, however. WTF? That is _exactly_ what you asked for: > [@Elvis](#): > > Where are the actual attempted crimes that are foiled by actual pistolpackers? Those are actual attempted crimes foiled by actual pistolpackers. You didn’t ask for statistics, you asked for actual crimes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/137 "2012-12-16T19:53:30Z")
An honest quote would include the previous sentence, and a basic understanding of parallelism. When come back, bring argument. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/138 "2012-12-16T20:09:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, it happens sometimes, that isn’t in doubt. The fact that you have to resort to listing _individual events_ proves the point, however. This is what you asked for: “Where are the actual attempted crimes that are foiled by actual pistolpackers?” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/139 "2012-12-16T20:13:45Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > In the meantime, cars are just not the murder weapon of choice. What does the choice of weapon have to do with anything? It’s not the gun, knife, or car that kills. It’s the person using the weapon that kills. The question to ask is WHY one weapon is used over another. As I’ve stated before in other threads, I made a knife in shop class that was over a foot long. I carried it from class to class as a bookmark while making it. During this era we had gun sport clubs at schools. Kids kept their guns in their car at school. I learned to shoot a handgun at school (taught by the local police). Gun use was legal and accepted by high school children and there were no mass killings. What has changed from when I was growing up in the United States? [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting)you can find a list of school shootings by year. The violence behind the killings is the problem. You can take the current weapon of choice away but you don’t begin to remove the ability to use other common items as weapons of mass killings or even single killings. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102/140 "2012-12-16T20:25:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What does the choice of weapon have to do with anything? It’s not the gun, knife, or car that kills. It’s the person using the weapon that kills. It’s disappointing that this needs explanation for _anyone_, but the choice of weapon has everything to do with lethality. Not as many innocent people die if the crazy/angry person has less lethal means at his disposal. How is that not obvious? > [@](#): > > The violence behind the killings is the problem. You can take the current weapon of choice away but you don’t begin to remove the ability to use other common items as weapons of mass killings or even single killings. That’s an entirely-too-common excuse for refusal to act. If you don’t have a plausible means to eliminate violent intentions in people, and I strongly doubt you do, then what can you do instead? :dubious: > [@Terr](#): > > This is what you asked for: “Where are the actual attempted crimes that are foiled by actual pistolpackers?” See above. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-2nd-amendment/644102.md?page=8)