# Time To Change Law, Re: Police Shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822 "2015-05-25T21:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/41 "2015-05-26T16:30:44Z")
Someone once mentioned on these boards that the police are technically not obligated to protect you. I’d change the law to require that. Like the military, they should be required to put themselves in danger to protect someone ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/42 "2015-05-26T16:32:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Someone once mentioned on these boards that the police are technically not obligated to protect you. I’d change the law to require that. Like the military, they should be required to put themselves in danger to protect someone …and we’ll be giving them an appropriate pay raise, I assume? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/43 "2015-05-26T16:33:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [You mean the one that was found not guilty this week?](http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2015/05/brelo_verdict.html) By virtue of it being impossible to determine precisely which goon committed murder? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/44 "2015-05-26T16:44:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > By virtue of it being impossible to determine precisely which goon committed murder? Well, who needs evidence when we can just inherently _know_ who’s guilty and deserves to be punished, right? Clearly we should just abolish the entire judicial system and put you in charge of deciding who walks and who ends up behind bars. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/45 "2015-05-26T16:56:02Z")
Cops routinely put their own safety in jeopardy to protect individuals and society as a whole. What they they are not expected to do, nor should they be, is place the safety of criminal suspects before their own. I’d like to see how YoSosoth would word a statute that required officers to put themselves in danger. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/46 "2015-05-26T16:59:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Incorrect or at least misleading. No it isn’t. The police don’t file the charges, the DA does. And the DA does in fact review every police involved shooting. How is what I posted incorrect when that is a fact? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/47 "2015-05-26T17:02:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, who needs evidence when we can just inherently _know_ who’s guilty and deserves to be punished, right? > > Clearly we should just abolish the entire judicial system and put you in charge of deciding who walks and who ends up behind bars. Hey, why have a judicial system at all? If a cop wants you dead, all he’s gotta do is round up a bunch of goons to empty their guns into you and if they can’t tell who fired the fatal shot, you’re good to go! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/48 "2015-05-26T17:25:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Someone once mentioned on these boards that the police are technically not obligated to protect you. I’d change the law to require that. Like the military, they should be required to put themselves in danger to protect someone In **YougSosoth** -land, I’m sure you’ll have no opposition to forcing someone to put their life ahead of yours. Until that becomes a reality, I guess the rest of us will have to settle for elected legislators making Constitutionally acceptable laws, and SCOTUS rulings that disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/49 "2015-05-26T17:28:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Hey, why have a judicial system at all? If a cop wants you dead, all he’s gotta do is round up a bunch of goons to empty their guns into you and if they can’t tell who fired the fatal shot, you’re good to go! If a criminal, or thug, wants you dead, all they have to do is kill you. If you outlaw the judicial system, you’d still be able to defend yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/50 "2015-05-26T17:34:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If a criminal, or thug This seems like unusually redundant phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/51 "2015-05-26T17:42:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If a criminal, or thug, wants you dead, all they have to do is kill you. If you outlaw the judicial system, you’d still be able to defend yourself. Why do criminals get into it? We expect criminals to kill people. It’s what they do. We don’t expect cops to kill people, except that they do. And some people cheer every time they do it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/52 "2015-05-26T17:44:10Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > No it isn’t. The police don’t file the charges, the DA does. And the DA does in fact review every police involved shooting. How is what I posted incorrect when that is a fact? It is incorrect that in every jurisdiction the DA files charges. But that’s also irrelevant to why your claim was wrong. Your claim was that a grand jury sees every shooting death. That’s just not true. Many cases are resolved at the investigation stage, some improperly. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/53 "2015-05-26T17:49:20Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why do criminals get into it? We expect criminals to kill people. It’s what they do. We don’t expect cops to kill people, except that they do. And some people cheer every time they do it. Police forces were created to deal with criminals. No criminals - No need for police. I don’t expect criminals to kill people, but they do. I expect the police to police the criminal element. It’s a fact of life that criminals do chose to cause grievous bodily injury, and murder, their victims. I expect PO’s to be able to defend themselves against the violent criminal(s). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/54 "2015-05-26T17:55:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I expect PO’s to be able to defend themselves against the violent criminal(s). One of the problems, though, is that they’re occasionally defending themselves way out proportion to actual threats, and not always against violent criminal(s). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/55 "2015-05-26T17:58:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This seems like unusually redundant phrasing. I don’t think so. \*criminal - noun › a person who has committed a crime or been found guilty of committing a crime criminal - adjective › involving or having the character of a crime: She may face criminal charges for lying to a grand jury. He had an extensive criminal record (= an official record of having committed many crimes). The way she blames other people for her own mistakes is criminal (= wrong). > **[criminal](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/criminal)** > > 1. someone who commits a crime: 2. relating to crime: 3. very bad or morally… thug - noun › a man who acts violently, esp. a criminal: Some thugs smashed his windows\*. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/56 "2015-05-26T18:00:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > One of the problems, though, is that they’re occasionally defending themselves way out proportion to actual threats, and not always against violent criminal(s). Then you, or society, should deal with those individuals who violate the law. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/57 "2015-05-26T18:17:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I don’t think so. > > \*criminal - > noun > › a person who has committed a crime or been found guilty of committing a crime > > criminal - > adjective > › involving or having the character of a crime: > > She may face criminal charges for lying to a grand jury. > > He had an extensive criminal record (= an official record of having committed many crimes). > > The way she blames other people for her own mistakes is criminal (= wrong). > > [CRIMINAL | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/criminal) > > thug - > noun > › a man who acts violently, esp. a criminal: > > Some thugs smashed his windows\*. It’s like saying “a criminal, or a law-breaker”. I stand by my observation. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Then you, or society, should deal with those individuals who violate the law. This is just a non-sequitor. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/58 "2015-05-26T18:37:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …and we’ll be giving them an appropriate pay raise, I assume? Yes, definitely. I think people who do that kind of stuff is woefully underpaid. And we need to incentivize people to want to do those jobs. > [@doorhinge](#): > > In **YougSosoth** -land, I’m sure you’ll have no opposition to forcing someone to put their life ahead of yours. > > Until that becomes a reality, I guess the rest of us will have to settle for elected legislators making Constitutionally acceptable laws, and SCOTUS rulings that disagree with you. What are you objecting to with that snark? That the rules that work in the military cannot work in a police force, or that the military is too harsh and how soldiers are forced to remain is unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/59 "2015-05-26T18:55:37Z")
Police aren’t murderers until they’ve been convicted of murder but non-police are criminals as soon as a cop decides to use force against them. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822/60 "2015-05-26T19:02:02Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > What they they are not expected to do, nor should they be, is place the safety of criminal suspects before their own. The problem is that there are criminal suspects and there are criminal suspects. Suppose I stop a guy in a car for having a tail light out. I don’t much care about the tail light, but I want him to give me consent to search his car, because this route and this time of night is common for drug traffickers. The guy is pretty upset with the stop. It’s his fourth time getting stopped this week. And he’s yelling and being unreasonable. I get forceful with him to try to take control of the situation, and I ask him to exit the car and to keep his hands up. As he does, he stands up he puts his hand into his pants. I shoot him. It turns out, he didn’t have a weapon, he was just pulling his loose pants up as he stood up. In that situation, I refused to “place the safety of this criminal suspect before my own.” But was that proper or desirable? It may well qualify as self-defense legally, but I think its fair to ask cops–as our agents with special powers and duties–to take more risks than that. We ask firefighters to run into burning buildings to save people, even when those people are negligent. We can ask cops to exercise a little more restraint before pulling the trigger when someone does something negligent at a traffic stop or other police encounter. For the most part, police already do that when it comes to most white people they encounter. If they exercised the same restraint with black men, we would be in much better shape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-change-law-re-police-shootings/720822.md?page=4)