# Time to Get Tough on Animal Cruelty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610 "2013-01-09T11:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/41 "2013-01-11T16:14:27Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Guess I am going to anger some hard core pet lovers here but 3 years in prison? That is no freaking cake walk. > > Do not get me wrong, I have an awesome lab that is indeed part of the family, but she is a dog not a human and three years seems more than appropriate to me. Agreed, three years for animal cruelty is absurd. However, in the case of the OP, **Zeriel** pointed out that crimes other than animal cruelty were committed: criminal deprivation of property (taking the woman’s dog without the intent to appropriate it for himself), criminal mischief (destroying the woman’s property), and wanton endangerment (throwing an object into the flow of traffic). It seems to me that the perpetrator should have been charged with those crimes, which (in my state, at least) could also amount to three years in prison. > [@chargerrich](#): > > Twenty years for killing a dog…that to me is borderline insane considering that MANY manslaughter charges end up being far less than twenty years. Agreed, such a penalty is monstrously unjust. > [@chargerrich](#): > > As a side note, isn’t what Michael Vick to MANY dogs did FAR worse than this one act of rage? He didn’t get twenty years and is back to making millions in the NFL (which is BS but that is another topic). Yes and no. He engaged in worst acts of cruelty, but (so far as I know) only destroyed his own property, which makes it less wrong in my view. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/42 "2013-01-12T13:18:54Z")
Ok, I couldn’t find the same studies, but likely it is because new studies have shown up ahead of the line. And I couldn’t access all of them, but a couple of studies below (from Australia) have their abstracts at least available online. I can dig some more information later, if I go back to my office: Not sure if the link works, but you can look up by the titles: [Examining the nexus between domestic violence and animal abuse in a national sample of service providers](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22594221) [Intimate partner violence and companion animal welfare](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22256986) [The relationship between domestic violence and animal abuse: an Australian study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18326483) They are all Australian studies, since it seems Australia finally starting publishing their own results about that topic, but some also reference in their abstract North American (US and Canada mostly) studies. This is an important issue with veterinarians because they may see the injured pet , and if so, what shall they do and how should they proceed? I can look up more information later, but it irks me to no end that some people fail to recognize that most animal abusers are not “OK”, something is not right in their heads. Simple jail time may not solve it, but then just jail time won’t solve most negative behaviors in humans. But to go up to say there shouldn’t be laws against it, then yea, that is IMHO wrong. Yes, I’m female. And this is an issue I do not take lightly, as I am involved in the cases that do NOT make it. And it is an issue that overall is important in my profession. ---
**Author:** ![St.Barthgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@St.Barthgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Barthgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/43 "2013-01-12T19:21:10Z")
My Vote, for what it’s worth: YES, tougher laws & Mandatory Prison time for Animal Abusers/Mill style breeders, etc… i’d like to see what Temple Grandin has to say on the issue. She seems to have a Timely, Balanced perspective. ---
**Author:** ![St.Barthgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@St.Barthgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Barthgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/44 "2013-01-12T19:31:51Z")
(i’m currently raising a (now) 6 week old Orphaned Kitten. A friend of mine actually Witnessed a man THROW A SACK in a local lake. She got the license #, was able to rescue two kittens. i’ve been caring for one with an eye towards finding her a fabulous family to call her own… When this was reported to the police, they did NOTHING. There is a pervasive Culture of just not caring… if there were absolute laws and penalties on the books, if this were, in fact, a CRIME- then the police would likely investigate and the DA would file a charge. I DO believe this man SHOULD be PUNISHED, not just ‘educated’, but PUNISHED. Certainly, his crime shouldn’t be swept under the rug) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/45 "2013-01-13T20:58:48Z")
People are kept civilized by two constraints – internal and external. Animal cruelty is a highly reliable diagnostic for absence of the former; all that can be done is to amplify the latter to compensate (i.e. punishments sufficiently severe to put the fear into them for life) or to put the perps down before they inevitably move on to human victims. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/46 "2013-01-13T21:08:20Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > I didn’t say dogs don’t suffer. Just that not everyone feels that it _matters_ if they suffer or not, and that it’s one thing I don’t think one group should be able to impose on another about. Of course there are people who don’t care if others suffer. As I noted above, self-defense dictates that they either be removed from society, or convinced that they had better at least pretend to be civilized or the rest of society will bloody well make _them_ suffer (something they do care about). ---
**Author:** ![TurboNuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@TurboNuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TurboNuke)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/47 "2013-01-13T23:07:55Z")
I have a Maltese that I love very much. We dont have children so this dog is a substitute child for us. If someone were to kill my dog in such a way there had better be some punishment otherwise I’m going to be planning my own revenge. I have bitched at teenagers in our neighborhood for speeding up and down our road. Mostly because if something weird happened and they ran over our dog, Im pretty sure a teenager is gonna take a beating. I dont want to go to jail, but Im pretty emotional about the dog. So there has to be some punishment that makes the aggrieved feel like justice has been done. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/48 "2013-01-14T03:18:47Z")
> [@St.Barthgirl](#): > > (i’m currently raising a (now) 6 week old Orphaned Kitten. A friend of mine actually Witnessed a man THROW A SACK in a local lake. She got the license #, was able to rescue two kittens. i’ve been caring for one with an eye towards finding her a fabulous family to call her own… When this was reported to the police, they did NOTHING. There is a pervasive Culture of just not caring… if there were absolute laws and penalties on the books, if this were, in fact, a CRIME- then the police would likely investigate and the DA would file a charge. I DO believe this man SHOULD be PUNISHED, not just ‘educated’, but PUNISHED. Certainly, his crime shouldn’t be swept under the rug) If that incident isn’t a crime in your jurisdiction (it’s not in my home state), then the police were right to do nothing. They’re not intended or suitable to convey moral lessons, just enforce the law. > [@SteveMB](#): > > People are kept civilized by two constraints – internal and external. Animal cruelty is a highly reliable diagnostic for absence of the former; all that can be done is to amplify the latter to compensate (i.e. punishments sufficiently severe to put the fear into them for life) or to put the perps down before they inevitably move on to human victims. Can it be demonstrated that those who engage in animal cruelty inevitably move on to human victims, or just that they are more likely to? > [@TurboNuke](#): > > If someone were to kill my dog in such a way there had better be some punishment otherwise I’m going to be planning my own revenge. Sure there should be punishment; they stole and destroyed your property. ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/49 "2013-01-14T03:34:32Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Of course there are people who don’t care if others suffer. As I noted above, self-defense dictates that they either be removed from society, or convinced that they had better at least pretend to be civilized or the rest of society will bloody well make _them_ suffer (something they do care about). Sure. And in the example of the OP, the guy got three years for taking someone’s property and destroying it. That seems fair to me - three years is a lot of time to learn the “don’t break people’s stuff” lesson. So what’s the problem? Did you think I was saying we shouldn’t punish people for killing other peoples’ animals? No, we should. I was only saying that the fact the property is an animal doesn’t merit punishment beyond destruction of any other property. And if it’s your animal, it’s no one’s business what you do to it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/50 "2013-01-14T04:12:54Z")
> [@Sevencl](#): > > Sure. And in the example of the OP, the guy got three years for taking someone’s property and destroying it. That seems fair to me - three years is a lot of time to learn the “don’t break people’s stuff” lesson. So what’s the problem? Did you think I was saying we shouldn’t punish people for killing other peoples’ animals? No, we should. I was only saying that the fact the property is an animal doesn’t merit punishment beyond destruction of any other property. And if it’s your animal, it’s no one’s business what you do to it. Actually, based on the article I linked to earlier and [this one](http://archives.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=3733), it seems that the perpetrator was only charged with animal cruelty: > [@](#): > > A Santa Clara County grand jury indicted Andrew Burnett on Thursday on a charge of killing or maiming or abusing an animal, a felony punishable by up to three years in prison. The relevant statue is this, California Penal Code 597: > [@](#): > > (a) Except as provided in subdivision (c) of this section or Section 599c, every person who maliciously and intentionally maims, mutilates, tortures or wounds a living animal or maliciously and intentionally kills an animal, is guilty of an offence punishable by imprisonment in the state prison or by a fine of not more than twenty thousand dollars ($20,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or, alternatively, by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or by a fine of not more than twenty thousand dollars ($20,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment. So, just “maliciously and intentionally” killing an animal is a misdemeanor. The defendant in this case was convicted of a felony under section b of the same statute: > [@](#): > > (b)Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (a) or (c), every person who overdrives, overloads, drives when overloaded, overworks, tortures, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance, drink, or shelter, cruelly beats, mutilates, or cruelly kills any animal, or causes or procures any animal to be so overdriven, overloaded, driven when overloaded, overworked, tortured, tormented, deprived of necessary sustenance, drink, shelter, or to be cruelly beaten, mutilated, or cruelly killed; and whoever, having the charge or custody of any animal, either as owner or otherwise, subjects any animal to needless suffering, or inflicts unnecessary cruelty upon the animal, or in any manner abuses any animal, or fails to provide the animal with proper food, drink, or shelter or protection from the weather, or who drives, rides, or otherwise uses the animal when unfit for labor, is, for every such offense, guilty of a crime punishable as a misdemeanor or as a felony or alternatively punishable as a misdemeanor or a felony and by a fine of not more than twenty thousand dollars ($20,000). According to the appellate court document available [here (PDF)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/californiastatecases/H023393.PDF), the defendant was found to have caused the dog to be cruelly killed, thus being guilty of a felony. I’m no lawyer, but the California statute seems absurdly broad and draconian to my lawman’s eyes. The defendant could have run over his own dog and received the same sentence, which is unjust. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/51 "2013-01-14T05:45:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Hate to see people who swallow goldfish lumped in with horse sodomists though. So I hope some more discretion could be used in classifying folks. I’m going to point at how arbitrary your distinction is by mentioning that I’m unable to tell which of both “crimes” you think is much worse than the other. It seemingly appears obvious to you, but I honestly can’t figure that out. I’m guessing the fish, since it ends up dead and presumably is swallowed alive, but I’ve a hard time considering this a serious crime worthy of a severe punishment, especially since we usually let them asphyxiate before, indeed, swallowing them. And in case you meant that horse sodomy is worst, I would note that most of them spend their lives carrying us on their back, which is without doubt a much worse treatment than an occasional penetration by a tiny human penis. ---
**Author:** ![GlassSlipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@GlassSlipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GlassSlipper)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/52 "2013-01-14T09:33:43Z")
Total anecdote that I’m sure people have heard a few times over - have personally seen a man or two locked up for killing the family dog long enough to get what would have been a soon-to-be-dead wife or two out of harm’s way. Also a person or two in court-ordered treatment for animal hoarding. However, we should not have to use animal cruelty as a means of getting around pitiful mental health services and domestic violence laws (Lovely fact - it’s more than possible to get less jail time for domestic violence than animal murder, especially if the victim is male, in my neck of the woods). Surely we could fix this? I’m getting a little sick of writing my state representative whenever the state decides to cut funding (again) for mental health services. Especially since they’re cheaper than, like, jail. I’m a card-carrying vegetarian, but I cringe at the idea of sixty-ish state dollars a day for any amount of time unless there is a really, really good reason - though I think this counts. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610/53 "2013-01-15T20:56:44Z")
While I empathise with the OP, 3 years is nothing to sneeze at. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-get-tough-on-animal-cruelty/646610.md?page=2)