# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/201 "2012-04-02T01:57:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yeah, but around here we call him Inmate 02648927. Yes, but not for murder. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/202 "2012-04-02T02:05:16Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Yes, but not for murder. Well, he didn’t kill anyone in Nevada, did he? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/203 "2012-04-02T02:17:01Z")
I suppose you are just going to go ahead and leap to the conclusion that a state called “Nevada” actually exists? Not willing to keep an open mind? Typical. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/204 "2012-04-02T02:18:17Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > . . . and why does his account of the incident turn out to be a stack of lies? He has no evidence on his side and a boatload that goes against his story. The Sanford police bought his story. They altered the police report to support it. That’s my gripe. That’s why I think they were complicit. > > Remember, US justice isn’t about “a shadow of a doubt” it’s about “a reasonable doubt.” > > **RR doesn’t seem to understand that** and it is that confusion that gets a lot of guilty people found to be “not guilty” by juries that can’t make the distinction. (Ever hear of O.J. Simpson?) Nope. I understand that perfectly. I’ve got an official certificate saying I’m a law-talking guy and everything. I also understand that I’m not qualified to make a judgement about guilt or innocence based on reading some news stories. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/205 "2012-04-02T02:24:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not. If it turns out that Zimmerman does not have injuries consistent with his story, then my conclusion is that he’s a liar and should go to jail. Okay, but I presume you don’t have the ability to personally travel to Sanford, Florida, five weeks ago. We’re going to have to go with the evidence that can be found from five weeks ago, or things that can be examined now. And since I’m not there in person (don’t know if you are), I’ll have to evaluate what I can find out from other sources. You say “if it turns out that Zimmerman does not have injuries consistent with his story”. What evidence would you accept to draw that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/206 "2012-04-02T02:26:45Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. I understand that perfectly. I’ve got an official certificate saying I’m a law-talking guy and everything. > > I also understand that I’m not qualified to make a judgement about guilt or innocence based on reading some news stories. Nobody’s asking you to “make a judgement”-this isn’t a court of law, and you aren’t playing the part of a lawyer for either side. Based on what you’ve seen so far, would you care to voice an “opinion”? Since this isn’t a court of law, you are even allowed to _change_ your “opinion” when more information comes in. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/207 "2012-04-02T02:26:58Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Okay, but I presume you don’t have the ability to personally travel to Sanford, Florida, five weeks ago. We’re going to have to go with the evidence that can be found from five weeks ago, or things that can be examined now. And since I’m not there in person (don’t know if you are), \*\*I’ll have to evaluate what I can find out from other sources. > \*\* Why do you “have to” evaluate anything? What real world consequence turns on whether Robot Arm believes or not that George Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to the back of his head? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/208 "2012-04-02T02:29:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Nobody’s asking you to “make a judgement”-this isn’t a court of law, and you aren’t playing the part of a lawyer for either side. Based on what you’ve seen so far, would you care to voice an “opinion”? Since this isn’t a court of law, you are even allowed to _change_ your “opinion” when more information comes in. No thanks. My personal standard for feeling like I know what happened is apparently a hell of a lot higher than the standards of Team Trayvon. And I realize that my opinion about the matter doesn’t matter to even a foothill of beans, so it’s useless to formulate one. I’ll just wait for our society’s truth-finding organizations to operate. Also, you are acting like a judgement and an opinion are two separate things. They aren’t. A judgement is simply an opinion of the court with jurisdiction over the matter. Since I’m just some random schmoe, my opinion means nothing, so it’s not even worth attempting to formulate one (even if I could, because, like I said above, I don’t feel comfortable that I know what happened just having read some news stories). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/209 "2012-04-02T02:35:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, you are acting like a judgement and an opinion are two separate things. They aren’t. A judgement is simply an opinion of the court with jurisdiction over the matter. Ah, so they are different. If they aren’t any different, why would there need to be an explanation of how a judgement is different than just any old opinion? ETA: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Why do you “have to” evaluate anything? What real world consequence turns on whether Robot Arm believes or not that George Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to the back of his head? Why do you “have to” post anything on these boards? What real world consequence turns on whether Rand Rover posts anything on the Straight Dope Message Board? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/210 "2012-04-02T02:39:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ah, so they are different. If they aren’t any different, why would there need to be an explanation of how a judgement is different than just any old opinion? You are confused. > [@](#): > > ETA: > > Why do you “have to” post anything on these boards? What real world consequence turns on whether Rand Rover posts anything on the Straight Dope Message Board? Very confused. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/211 "2012-04-02T02:47:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Why do you “have to” evaluate anything? What real world consequence turns on whether Robot Arm believes or not that George Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to the back of his head? Two reasons. Human beings are curious animals. We seek information about our surroundings, and drawn conclusions based on what we learn. On the more pragmatic side, we all have a role to play in how our society operates and governs itself. I wish to see our public institutions operate in a just manner, and to take what actions I can to ensure that they do. I’m not a resident of Florida, but I am a U.S. citizen. With the F.B.I. and the Justice Department investigating, that makes it my business, however remotely. I do recognize the limits of my knowledge of this case, and the limits of my responsibility. I’m not on the grand jury, and am very unlikely to be on Zimmerman’s trial jury, should it come to that. I hope the people who are will take their positions seriously, and will be informed of the details to a much greater degree than I am. However, it seems that the case wouldn’t have even gotten this far without ordinary citizens pushing to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/212 "2012-04-02T02:49:36Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > However, it seems that the case wouldn’t have even gotten this far without ordinary citizens pushing to make it happen. It does “seem” that way, doesn’t it? But whether or not that’s the gods’ honest truth is a whole 'nother matter. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/213 "2012-04-02T03:08:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > It does “seem” that way, doesn’t it? But whether or not that’s the gods’ honest truth is a whole 'nother matter. Until an honest God tells me what the truth is, I’ll have to make do with what I can get. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/214 "2012-04-02T03:41:30Z")
Is justice important, or does it just “seem” to be important? Would you tell a black parent in that town not to worry how the police regard his child, because it “seems” to be that their child’s life is held to be of little value. That they shouldn’t form an opinion until they can form one with your Olympian indifference? Calmly explain to them why this mass of evidence should be brushed aside, since it only “seems” to be true. They have an opinion, and you damn sure bet their opinion matters to them. Their pain, their worry, is that anything to you at all? I seldom have to ask this of another man, but do you actually give a shit? ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/215 "2012-04-02T03:45:08Z")
just a point of fact from someone who has had and seen multiple broken noses: if zimmerman had a recently broken nose, you would have been able to tell it, even in the grainy police video. A broken nose will produce 1) swelling of the face 2) bruising of the nose 3) bruising under and around the eyes. Every time i’ve broken my nose I looked like a damned raccoon. Also, there is the fact that while yes, head wounds and broken noses do stop bleeding eventually, they bleed profusely. We aren’t talking arterial spray, but we also aren’t talking ‘oh just get a tissue and lean forward’. they bleed a lot. Didn’t see one spot of blood on him, and no, cops don’t keep extra clothes in their cars for crime victims. And before you say ‘maybe they let him change clothes before taking him in for questioning,’ that isn’t the way it works. When my youngest brother got murdered, I wasn’t allowed to change out of my blood soaked clothes until I had given my statement at the police station. If cops won’t let a crime VICTIM who is literally coated in blood change clothes before giving his statement, then they aren’t going to extend that courtesy to someone being questioned on a homicide, even if they had determined that it was justified. so I’m not going to say innocent or guilty when it comes to zimmy, but i will say that a lot of things don’t add up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/216 "2012-04-02T03:50:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > No thanks. > > My personal standard for feeling like I know what happened is apparently a hell of a lot higher than the standards of Team Trayvon. And I realize that my opinion about the matter doesn’t matter to even a foothill of beans, so it’s useless to formulate one. I’ll just wait for our society’s truth-finding organizations to operate. > > Also, you are acting like a judgement and an opinion are two separate things. They aren’t. A judgement is simply an opinion of the court with jurisdiction over the matter. Since I’m just some random schmoe, my opinion means nothing, so it’s not even worth attempting to formulate one (even if I could, because, like I said above, I don’t feel comfortable that I know what happened just having read some news stories). You knew what the topic of this thread was when you joined in, _so why the hell are you still posting in it if you don’t plan on voicing an opinion on the subject this thread is about?_ ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/217 "2012-04-02T05:19:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You knew what the topic of this thread was when you joined in, _so why the hell are you still posting in it if you don’t plan on voicing an opinion on the subject this thread is about?_ Well, he’s got nothing else to do under that bridge all day; that’s my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/218 "2012-04-02T05:33:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > One of the many articles of faith of Team Trayvon, oft-repeated and never proven. It’s my opinion. If you don’t like it, bite me. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/219 "2012-04-02T12:00:18Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You say “if it turns out that Zimmerman does not have injuries consistent with his story”. What evidence would you accept to draw that conclusion? The most important evidence will be the medical examiner’s report, which has not been made public. Witness statements given in the days after the incident that specifically mention whether or not Zimmerman has injuries would also be useful, but may well not exist. Decent quality photos of him from the same time period would also help. However, if the medical report unambiguously states that he was injured, that would trump non-expert witnesses, or photos, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/220 "2012-04-02T13:02:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The most important evidence will be the medical examiner’s report, which has not been made public. Witness statements given in the days after the incident that specifically mention whether or not Zimmerman has injuries would also be useful, but may well not exist. Decent quality photos of him from the same time period would also help. > > However, if the medical report unambiguously states that he was injured, that would trump non-expert witnesses, or photos, in my opinion. But what about the delay between his seeking treatment – that is, I agree with you that the EMT report is the gold standard, but a visit to the ER the next day loses some evidentiary value. Doesn’t it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=12)