# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/601 "2012-05-21T22:54:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s what I tried, eh? > > And then I incompetently placed a list of all 44 call summaries in the same post, tipping off eagle-eyed observers to my perfidy? Your perfidy is well known in these parts. I suggest that you put the list there in a quite competent attempt to give yourself plausible deniability. Is it a conspiracy theory on my part? Perhaps. Was I incorrect about the scope of Zimmerman’s police calls? Certainly. Does either of those things prove anything at all? Not that I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/602 "2012-05-22T00:23:32Z")
Are you channeling your inner Rumsfeld? Yes indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/603 "2012-05-22T01:20:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you channeling your inner Rumsfeld? Yes indeed. I’m just quoting this so Bricker can see it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/604 "2012-05-22T02:03:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can never tell with you. Does that mean you disagree with my factual statement or you just don’t like the truth? Oh, the first…no wait, if I disagree with a factual statement then I must be wrong or a liar, so I’ll take the second…no, no, that means I don’t like the truth, which means I’m weaker than somebody smart and realistic like Bricker, so, no, I gotta pick the first one, but I can’t because…brain overheating! smoke from my ears, eyebrows blazing, I can feel my mind going, Dave… He Kirked me! _Aaaaarrgh!_ ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/605 "2012-05-22T02:59:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I doubt you’ll be able to make a direct, succinct, clear statement about that either. Undoubtedly you’ll have some faux-sarcastic comment to attempt to hide this lack, though. Luci is like the illiterate guy who always orders the special of the day–he’s found ways to get around displaying his complete lack of any intelligence whatsoever (except for those rare posts where he drops the faux sarcasm thing and his rank stupidity comes shining through). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/606 "2012-05-22T03:02:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, the first…no wait, if I disagree with a factual statement then I must be wrong or a liar, so I’ll take the second…no, no, that means I don’t like the truth, which means I’m weaker than somebody smart and realistic like Bricker, so, no, I gotta pick the first one, but I can’t because…brain overheating! smoke from my ears, eyebrows blazing, I can feel my mind going, Dave… > > He Kirked me! _Aaaaarrgh!_ You mixed SF metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/607 "2012-05-22T03:52:48Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Recognizing that, statistically, a black teenager wearing a hoodie is more likely to commit a crime than, say, a 50 year-old white dude wearing a polo shirt That’s not what Zimmerman did, though. -All the recent break-ins were young black men. -This guy a ayoung black man. -Therefore he is up to no good. That was Zimmerman’s thought process. I base my reasoning on how little evidence he provided in the 911 call. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/608 "2012-05-22T05:15:59Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > That’s not what Zimmerman did, though. > > -All the recent break-ins were young black men. > -This guy a ayoung black man. > -Therefore he is up to no good. > > That was Zimmerman’s thought process. I base my reasoning on how little evidence he provided in the 911 call. Martin was also someone who was not a resident of the private community Zimmerman lived in. That in itself is reason for asking what he’s up to, and for calling the police if he was acting suspiciously. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/609 "2012-05-22T05:50:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Try, elucidator. > > Just fill in the blank. A simple, declarative sentence: “I believe Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin based on Martin’s race because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” How about a bit of deductive reasoning, Counselor Sherlock? We already know he was “acting suspiciously” because he said so, that’s why he called the cops. Do you want to try and suggest that he was oblivious to Martin’s race? Can you tell me, in a simple declarative sentence, precisely why he considered Martin to be suspicious? Walking too slowly, looking around? _That’s_ suspicious? If he had no good reason to believe that Martin was up to something, aren’t we pretty much left with race? Take away that which is impossible, and what you’re left with is likely the truth. So, you tell me: why did he call the cops? Walking too slowly? Too fast? Reckless eyeballing? Lurking with intent to loom? From what did Mr Zimmerman deduce that Martin was on drugs? I’ve seen lots and lots of stoned people, they don’t walk in any particular way. So, if he had no good reason to be suspicious, that only leaves not good reasons. One minus one equals zero. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/610 "2012-05-22T05:52:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Martin was also someone who was not a resident of the private community Zimmerman lived in. That in itself is reason for asking what he’s up to, and for calling the police if he was acting suspiciously. Excuse me? What the bleeding fuck does that mean, “acting suspiciously”? In what way was he “acting suspiciously”, what overt act did he commit to “act suspiciously”? And it better be a good one, a real doozy, because the kid is fucking dead. At seventeen. For “acting suspiciously”. How would you instruct a young black man in how to not act suspiciously? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/611 "2012-05-22T06:14:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And it better be a good one, a real doozy, because the kid is fucking dead. At seventeen. For “acting suspiciously”. The kid is fucking dead. At seventeen. For attacking and beating up someone who had a gun. I would instruct a young black man not to attack people and beat them up. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/612 "2012-05-22T06:27:37Z")
Wouldn’t telling them to watch out for vigilante murderers be better advice, in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/613 "2012-05-22T06:32:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Excuse me? What the bleeding fuck does that mean, “acting suspiciously”? In what way was he “acting suspiciously”, what overt act did he commit to “act suspiciously”? > > And it better be a good one, a real doozy, because the kid is fucking dead. At seventeen. For “acting suspiciously”. How would you instruct a young black man in how to not act suspiciously? He’s not dead because he acted suspiciously. He’s dead because he punched Zimmerman in the face instead of walking to the house he was staying at. As I’m sure you’re aware, it is not an overt act that makes someone look suspicious - if it’s an overt act you report that act, not that they appear suspicious. Stop pretending there’s something wrong with phoning the police because you see someone acting suspiciously, as that is the act of a good citizen. If he’s not a resident of a private community, simply being there is potentially enough to trigger suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/614 "2012-05-22T06:40:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Stop pretending there’s something wrong with phoning the police because you see someone acting suspiciously, as that is the act of a good citizen. I think it’s more the following someone and then shooting him that’s the key point here. There were intervening events, but some people in this thread don’t think the following or the shooting were necessary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/615 "2012-05-22T06:47:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He’s not dead because he acted suspiciously. He’s dead because he punched Zimmerman in the face instead of walking to the house he was staying at… But Zimmerman was following him because he was “acting suspiciously”, yes? So the entire incident is predicated upon this one fact. Which you seem unable to define. > [@](#): > > …As I’m sure you’re aware, it is not an overt act that makes someone look suspicious - if it’s an overt act you report that act, not that they appear suspicious. Stop pretending there’s something wrong with phoning the police because you see someone acting suspiciously, as that is the act of a good citizen… Don’t have any real problem with him annoying the police with his vaporous suspicions. Nor did I ever say such a thing, much less pretend. > [@](#): > > …If he’s not a resident of a private community, simply being there is potentially enough to trigger suspicion. Well, why didn’t you simply say so! So, that’s it, then? That is the sum total of his suspicious behavior, being there? Wow, good thing being black had nothing to do with it, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/616 "2012-05-22T06:48:09Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I think it’s more the following someone and then shooting him that’s the key point here. There were intervening events, but some people in this thread don’t think the following or the shooting were necessary. **Elucidator** was ranting about what counted as suspicious, so I was clearing that up for him. Neither calling the police or following him was necessary. The various questions being asked are whether it was legal, moral, or sensible for him to follow Martin, and whether he killed Martin in legitimate self defence. My opinion is that it was legal, moral, and stupid to follow him, and that it _may_ have been legitimate self defence. In the absence of convincing evidence that it wasn’t, I’m content to presume him innocent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/617 "2012-05-22T07:01:10Z")
Oh, no, you cleared that up quite well. According to you, his simply being there was suspicious. You’ve made that quite clear. Took a while to drag it out of you, but you finally told us. I won’t bring it up again, I can certainly understand how you’d be embarrassed. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/618 "2012-05-22T07:06:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, no, you cleared that up quite well. According to you, his simply being there was suspicious. You’ve made that quite clear. Took a while to drag it out of you, but you finally told us. I won’t bring it up again, I can certainly understand how you’d be embarrassed. Why would I be embarrassed about that? What, exactly, is wrong with being suspicious of someone who is in a private place, who you have no reason to believe belongs there? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/619 "2012-05-22T07:07:28Z")
Well, of course! What kind of country would it be, if people could just wander about, wherever they chose, without a good reason to be there! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/620 "2012-05-22T07:13:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, of course! What kind of country would it be, if people could just wander about, wherever they chose, without a good reason to be there! Do you understand what “private” means? It was a gated community - that is, one where people are quite specifically _not_ entitled to wander about as they choose without permission. We are not talking about someone walking down a public road. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=32)