# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/641 "2012-05-22T14:01:21Z")
Evidence besides Zimmerman’s own assertion that Martin was comitting the heinous crimes of “walking slowly” or “looking at houses”? ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/642 "2012-05-22T14:04:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > What, since yesterday? Zimmerman has an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather, who probably lives/lived in the old country, hasn’t seen GZ since he was little if at all and hasn’t been thought about until this Trayvon thing came up. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/643 "2012-05-22T15:03:25Z")
LOL. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/644 "2012-05-22T16:23:06Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Zimmerman has an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather, who probably lives/lived in the old country, hasn’t seen GZ since he was little if at all and hasn’t been thought about until this Trayvon thing came up. Interesting, although it would’ve been much more dramatic if the defense called the Afro-Peruvian great grandfather to the stand as a surprise witness, causing chaos in the courtroom and decimating the prosecution’s case. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/645 "2012-05-22T16:23:12Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Evidence besides Zimmerman’s own assertion that Martin was comitting the heinous crimes of “walking slowly” or “looking at houses”? Zimmerman’s own statement to the 911 operator. What motivation would he have to lie at that point? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/646 "2012-05-22T16:23:47Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Come on Bricker. You couldn’t get a defendant off bason those charges?! Plus you know who else walked in the rain? Zimmerman. Of course, but notice how you switched from “What caused Zimmerman’s suspicion” to “Couldn’t you get a defendant off?” Of course I could. It would be the easiest case ever. “Your Honor, the penal code of this state does not forbid walking slowly in the rain.” “Case dismissed.” But this discussion arises from the assertion that Zimmerman must have been suspicious of Martin because of Martin’s race. I’m saying his suspicion could have been founded on the unusual spectacle of a person walking slowly in the rain. If a police officer had seen Martin walking slowly in the rain, the officer would have been entirely within his rights to pull up next to Martin and ask him what he was doing. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman needed to take action based on that?! Could the police take Martin in based on what Zimmerman said?(let’s assume he wasn’t high then) Take him in? No. Pull up to him and ask him what his business was? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/647 "2012-05-22T16:25:02Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Evidence besides Zimmerman’s own assertion that Martin was comitting the heinous crimes of “walking slowly” or “looking at houses”? None. Evidence besides Zimmerman’s own assertions that Zimmerman’s suspicion was based on race? ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/648 "2012-05-22T16:41:51Z")
Ya know, reading this thread is like watching a 5 year old who just stole a cookie try and justify his actions. “A white guy killed a little black kid for no reason!!!?!?!?!” “Well, the little black kid was 6 foot tall and the white guy isn’t actually a white guy” “Um, the white guy…errr…Zimmerman killed the little black kid…um, killed him for no reason.” “Well, Zimmerman had cuts on his head, Trayvon had cuts on his fists and a witness saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman hitting him.” "Well, Zimmerman asked him a question. That is obviously racist. I mean, asking a teenager who is walking around aimlessly in the rain in an area that has had breakins is obviously racist. Look, Zimmerman said the kid was black. THAT IS RACIST. Look at Zimmermans previous reports, they are all about black people. " “Well, actually, Zimmerman didn’t mention the kid was black until the operator asked him. And Zimmermans previous reports are not all about black people. About 10% are.” “Umm…He is a racist!” and so on and so forth. I have no idea what happened that night. And neither does anyone in this thread. It really and truly sucks that Trayvon was shot and killed. Zimmerman does appear to be a little too gung ho about the neighborhood watch. However, that isn’t enough to toss the guy in jail. FWIW, my theory is that when Zimmerman confronted Trayvon he did so like an ass. It escalated into a fight and Trayvon started whaling upon Zimmerman. Zimmerman then shot Trayvon. Who escalated it? I have no idea, unlike some of the clarvoyants in this thread. All I know is the whole situation is a damned shame. Slee ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/649 "2012-05-22T16:49:41Z")
Thank you. Now that you’ve reset the counter, we can speculate for up to two more pages before we need another finger-wagging reminder that none of us knows what happened that night. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/650 "2012-05-22T16:52:07Z")
… followed by a wild-ass guess as to what really happened that night. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/651 "2012-05-22T17:11:15Z")
Bricker, what about Zimmerman’s description is suspicious? Those are perfectly innocent activities even with the burglaries. RATL has black residents. Why not jump to the conclusion that Martin is someone’s son or friend or boyfriend? There is one call where Zimmerman states he’s never seen someone before. And that was enough to suspect him. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/652 "2012-05-22T17:13:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But Zimmerman was following him because he was “acting suspiciously”, yes? So the entire incident is predicated upon this one fact. In the same sense that the entire incident is predicated on Martin’s visit to 7-11. If he didn’t go, the whole thing wouldn’t have happened. So? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/653 "2012-05-22T17:15:56Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > What evidence do you have for that besides the killers statement? Lacerations on the head and broken nose on Zimmerman. No injuries except on the knuckle on Martin. Statements of witnesses that there was a fight. The two together point pretty clearly who was beating up whom. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/654 "2012-05-22T17:40:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll do more than insinuate it. > > The dispatcher had no authority. And the zircon-encrusted semantic parsing tweezers come out… So, in **Brickerworld** , when discussing matters of police business, a police department dispatcher has precisely the same authority as a “telephone operator”? Which is to say, none? Remember Professor Irwin Corey, “The Worlds Foremost Authority”? You see, the word “authority” is not confined to a question of legal power, it also connotes a certain expertise. A person whom you would well expect to have some knowledge. For instance, when arguing with a lawyer who smacks you upside the head with his sheepskin and claims “authority” on a subject, he is not claiming to be able to put you under arrest, he is claiming “authority” on a matter of knowledge. Now, to my ear, the dispatchers voice sounds distinctly authoritative, in the sense of speaking on behalf of the police department: “OK, we don’t need you to do that”. Advising Mr Zimmerman that his following Martin was not a good idea, as the real cops were on their way. Its possible, I suppose, just barely possible, that he was advising Mr Zimmerman that indeed, the police were fully staffed and did not require his assistance, but were nonetheless grateful for his participation, as the police are commonly grateful for the assistance of enthusiastic and armed amateurs. Yes. Quite. To my ear, the voice carries clear tones of admonishment and warning: do not interfere in police business. Your function as a neighborhood watch junior G-man has been completed, the police are advised. The dispatcher then goes on at great length to ascertain precisely where Mr Zimmerman is so that he would be there when the police arrive. So, no, the police dispatcher could not order Zimmerman to remain in his truck at the specified location. He has no such “authority”, that is true. He could, however, advise Mr Zimmerman of the preferred procedure, as he was in a position to know that. Note the use of the word “we”, as in “we don’t need you to do that”. Who is “we” in that sentence if not the police? Note to self: do not, under any circumstances, play Twister with a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/655 "2012-05-22T17:45:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In the same sense that the entire incident is predicated on Martin’s visit to 7-11. If he didn’t go, the whole thing wouldn’t have happened. So? Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! Zimmerman clearly stated his call to the police and his actions were based upon his suspicions, that Martin was on drugs and up to no good, an asshole who, like so many others, was probably going to get away with it. Those are his words, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/656 "2012-05-22T17:51:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Lacerations on the head and broken nose on Zimmerman. No injuries except on the knuckle on Martin. Statements of witnesses that there was a fight. The two together point pretty clearly who was beating up whom. If I push you forcefully and you beat me up, the wound distribution would be the same, right? It would be my fault wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/657 "2012-05-22T17:53:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! > > Zimmerman clearly stated his call to the police and his actions were based upon his suspicions, that Martin was on drugs and up to no good, an asshole who, like so many others, was probably going to get away with it. Those are his words, not mine. Your statement was “the entire incident is predicated on this one fact [Zimmerman thinking that Martin was acting suspiciously]”. I responded that you could also say that the entire incident is predicated on Martin going to 7-11. That’s factually correct. It is also correct to say that the entire incident is predicated on Martin getting suspended from school, on Zimmerman moving into this neighborhood, and on both parties being born. Do you have a problem with factual correctness of any of these statements? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/658 "2012-05-22T17:57:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If I push you forcefully and you beat me up, the wound distribution would be the same, right? It would be my fault wouldn’t it? Yes. As has been pointed out to you and others, multiple times, under Florida law, if there is reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, use of deadly force is legal no matter who “pushed forcefully” whom to begin with. And if there is NO reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, use of deadly force is illegal no matter who “pushed forcefully” whom to begin with. So, from the last two sentences, it is clear that the “pushed forcefully” thing is irrelevant to the question of use of deadly force. The only thing that the determination of who pushed whom first changes is the duty to retreat. Since if someone is sitting on you beating you up the avenues of retreat are non-existent, that question is moot. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/659 "2012-05-22T18:01:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your statement was “the entire incident is predicated on this one fact [Zimmerman thinking that Martin was acting suspiciously]”. I responded that you could also say that the entire incident is predicated on Martin going to 7-11. That’s factually correct. It is also correct to say that the entire incident is predicated on Martin getting suspended from school, on Zimmerman moving into this neighborhood, and on both parties being born. Do you have a problem with factual correctness of any of these statements? I’ll fix it then. Two people went to the store that night. Under normal circumstances, both people would have returned from the store without incident. As it played out, someone ended up dead. The difference between the expected outcome and the actual outcome was predicated on Zimmerman’s suspicions, which were ultimately proven to be incorrect. When you hear “the entire incident,” do you honestly picture it starting when Martin gets the munchies and Zimmerman needs groceries? Because that’s dumb. “The entire incident” begins when the situation deviates from normal. And the only reason the situation deviated from normal is because Zimmerman jumped to an incorrect conclusion. That’s the moment in time when the “incident” began. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/660 "2012-05-22T18:04:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > …Do you have a problem with factual correctness of any of these statements? “Factually correct” is not the same thing as “relevant”. Simply stating a string of facts that have no bearing on the issue is not an argument. I can’t type any slower without appearing suspicious, you may have to raise your game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=34)