# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/761 "2012-05-24T00:28:54Z")
So is this mutual mental masturbation? Or have you just come in to metaphorically slap our hands away from our dicks and inform us that only the jury can engage in such dirty behaviour? Or when a jury does it, is it upgraded to genuine mental intercourse? Or only oral intercourse (discourse)? Any registered clairvoyants care to consult Jim McCawley? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/762 "2012-05-24T00:35:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would it? It’s legal for GZ to have been carrying a gun. That, in and of itself, is not license for someone to attack him. Was it a clearly lit kittens and gun show, or a dark rainy road Zimmerman had been following the kid down in a way the child found very creepy? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/763 "2012-05-24T00:55:32Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Was it a clearly lit kittens and gun show, or a dark rainy road Zimmerman had been following the kid down in a way the child found very creepy? :smack: You’re right. I missed the part of the law that said SYG was null and void on dark, rainy nights and that anyone carrying a gun under those circumstances is fair game to attack. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/764 "2012-05-24T01:06:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > :smack: You’re right. I missed the part of the law that said SYG was null and void on dark, rainy nights and that anyone carrying a gun under those circumstances is fair game to attack. Someone aggressively approaches you with a gun on a dark rainy night, after following you, would you not feel threatened, even if the deadly weapon is holstered? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/765 "2012-05-24T01:10:08Z")
Well, now consider: if Martin doesn’t know Zimmerman is armed, he has no particular reason to fear grievous bodily harm. Which equation is altered if Martin can see that Zimmerman is carrying a pretty serious pistol. If Martin is already afraid of this stranger following him, how much more afraid is he likely to be when he finds out that stranger has a gun? It has been widely suggested here that because Martin “wasn’t from around here”, he is subject to reasonable suspicion. May I also suggest that a young black man confronted with a hostile white man with a gun has even more reason to feel threatened? Now, I’m not at all sure how I’d react. But its not outside of the realm of possibility that I might very well try to prevent him from pulling that gun (assuming he hasn’t already). Knock him down, try to pin him so he can’t reach the gun? Sure, better chance than outrunning a 9mm bullet! Knock him down, pin him, look for a medium sized planet to hit him with. A “by any means necessary” situation. I’m legally wrong, maybe I go to jail, but not the morgue. And, IIRC, Zimmerman said he had to shoot Martin because he was going for his gun, yes? So, according to Zimmerman, at that point in time, Martin knew he had a gun. Well, then, at what point in time did he find that out? And under what circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/766 "2012-05-24T01:13:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Someone aggressively approaches you with a gun on a dark rainy night, after following you, would you not feel threatened, even if the deadly weapon is holstered? I’d probably be a bit scared. But if I walked up and punched him, I wouldn’t expect to be acquitted of assault charges. It’s perfectly legal for GZ carry a gun in FL, even on dark, rainy nights. Now, you’ve inserted a new word, “aggressively”, into the equation without telling us exactly what that means. “Aggressively” as in walks towards me in a determined fashion? “Aggressively” as in tells me has a gun and will shoot me if I try to flee? There’s a lot of meanings to that term, and if we’re talking legality, we need to be precise. And in the case under analysis, we have no evidence that GZ was approaching “aggressively”, even in the mildest meaning of that term. **elucidator** : Your scenario is certainly possible, but it is far from being the only possibility. And since when did Zimmerman become white? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/767 "2012-05-24T01:20:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would it? It’s legal for GZ to have been carrying a gun. That, in and of itself, is not license for someone to attack him. If Trayvon Martin saw the gun when he was first approached by Zimmerman, then it was not concealed. Isn’t that outside the scope of a concealed carry permit? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/768 "2012-05-24T01:21:37Z")
Can we fairly say he was being approached unwillingly? That he did not welcome a conversation with Mr. Zimmerman? We can fairly say so, since he made clear effort to avoid it. And if you insist on confronting someone who is clearly unwilling to be so confronted, that isn’t aggressive? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/769 "2012-05-24T01:24:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **elucidator** : Your scenario is certainly possible, but it is far from being the only possibility. And since when did Zimmerman become white? According to Trayvon’s friend, Zimmerman was characterized by Trayvon as a “crazy, creepy, white guy”. So that would be Trayvon’s perception at that time, that he was white. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/770 "2012-05-24T01:31:50Z")
The cops called Zimmerman white as well. In other news, I just learned today that his full name is George Michael. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/771 "2012-05-24T01:35:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Can we fairly say he was being approached unwillingly? Sure. > [@](#): > > That he did not welcome a conversation with Mr. Zimmerman? We can fairly say so, since he made clear effort to avoid it. Sure. > [@](#): > > And if you insist on confronting someone who is clearly unwilling to be so confronted, that isn’t aggressive? Not necessarily. But, at most, it’s on the “soft” side of the scale I tried to lay out earlier. Still not seeing what difference that makes, though. What, in your mind, does that allow Trayvon to do? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/772 "2012-05-24T01:45:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’d probably be a bit scared. But if I walked up and punched him, I wouldn’t expect to be acquitted of assault charges. It’s perfectly legal for GZ carry a gun in FL, even on dark, rainy nights. And this right there is the issue. You would be a bit more than scared if you’re made of the same stuff as most of us, especially after the documented stalking, the same stalking that according to conversation with Martin’s girlfriend basically creeped him out. In Martin’s situation, and triply so at his age, some creeper in a vehicle slowly following, ignoring my attempts to get away. Yeah I’d feel pretty uneasy. Given Zimmerman is 100% creating this situation, nevermind his wonton recklessness ignoring 911 instructions (which I wouldn’t know about), why shouldn’t I be able to defend myself? Anyway, bottom line if Zimmerman hadn’t been such a deluded piece of shit and followed 911’s instructions, Martin would still be alive. As for aggressive, I suppose that is my own opinion, but I have a lot trouble believing Zimmerman wasn’t aggressive. Would a nonaggressive individual complain they always get away and ignore 911’s instructions to wait for a cop? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/773 "2012-05-24T01:49:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure. > > Sure. > > Not necessarily. But, at most, it’s on the “soft” side of the scale I tried to lay out earlier. > > Still not seeing what difference that makes, though. What, in your mind, does that allow Trayvon to do? Just out of curiosity, if you feel someone with a gun is dangerous, and pursuing you in your attempts to get away, are you supposed to wait till they try shooting you to try to disarm them? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/774 "2012-05-24T01:50:10Z")
According to [this](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/20/1093168/-Was-the-fighting-over-when-Zimmerman-shot-Trayvon-) cite, one witness heard Zimmerman announce at some point that he had a gun. If this is true, Martin would have known he was in a conflict with an armed man. In practical terms, it would be just as if Zimmerman had flashed him his gun. Knowing what he was up against could have very well been what caused him to stop fighting and start screaming for help. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/775 "2012-05-24T01:51:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > And this right there is the issue. You would be a bit more than scared if you’re made of the same stuff as most of us, especially after the documented stalking, the same stalking that according to conversation with Martin’s girlfriend basically creeped him out. > > In Martin’s situation, and triply so at his age, some creeper in a vehicle slowly following, ignoring my attempts to get away. Yeah I’d feel pretty uneasy. Given Zimmerman is 100% creating this situation, nevermind his wonton recklessness ignoring 911 instructions (which I wouldn’t know about), why shouldn’t I be able to defend myself? > > Anyway, bottom line if Zimmerman hadn’t been such a deluded piece of shit and followed 911’s instructions, Martin would still be alive. > > As for aggressive, I suppose that is my own opinion, but I have a lot trouble believing Zimmerman wasn’t aggressive. Would a nonaggressive individual complain they always get away and ignore 911’s instructions to wait for a cop? Well, I do agree that, from what we know at this time, Zimmerman “acted stupidly”, to borrow a phrase. I would not have come close to doing what he did. I think this was an easily avoidable tragedy, and I strongly dislike the attitude of Zimmerman. From what we know at this time. But, the law is what it is, and I think it is going to be very difficult to make 2nd degree murder stick. Unless there is some crazy, secret evidence that the prosecution pulls at the trial. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/776 "2012-05-24T01:56:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, I do agree that, from what we know at this time, Zimmerman “acted stupidly”, to borrow a phrase. I would not have come close to doing what he did. I think this was an easily avoidable tragedy, and I strongly dislike the attitude of Zimmerman. From what we know at this time. > > But, the law is what it is, and I think it is going to be very difficult to make 2nd degree murder stick. Unless there is some crazy, secret evidence that the prosecution pulls at the trial. Sadly I agree. The innocent till proven guilty standard, is double edged. Hallmark of a just society, even when it lets the jackasses off. That said, if he escapes criminal justice, may Zimmerman end up like OJ. Losing it all from civil justice, and his life ruined. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/777 "2012-05-24T02:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > ,What, in your mind, does that allow Trayvon to do? Not saying it “allows” anything, closest I’ve been to law school was delivering a pizza. (They stiffed me) But just as I said, if I’m wrong about that, I’d rather go to jail than the morgue. “Soft aggression”? This isn’t interrupting someone’s conversation. This is persistently following someone who clearly does not want you to. Zimmerman is suspicious? Then he calls the cops, sure. But that’s where his privileges end. His suspicions do not entitle him to _any_ aggression, soft or otherwise. He is entitled, maybe even duty bound to advise the police, and then further entitled to butt the fuck out. Hence the admonition:“OK, we don’t need you to do that.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/778 "2012-05-24T02:04:36Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Sadly I agree. The innocent till proven guilty standard, is double edged. Hallmark of a just society, even when it lets the jackasses off. > > That said, if he escapes criminal justice, may Zimmerman end up like OJ. Losing it all from civil justice, and his life ruined. I’ll wait for the trial, when we get to see all the evidence, before I wish ill on Zimmerman. And, maybe I’m wrong, but I thought **Bricker** explained that a civil trial isn’t in the cards. Still, he’s always going to be the guy who shot the black teenager, and that’s going to make him a villain to 10 people for every 1 who thinks he’s a stand-up guy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/779 "2012-05-24T02:08:56Z")
Gee, that’s rough. All of that just for gunning down a seventeen year old kid? Good thing he didn’t drop kick a puppy! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/780 "2012-05-24T02:15:32Z")
Yep, that’s about as rough as it is likely to get. Do you want me to pretend it isn’t? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=40)