# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/781 "2012-05-24T02:17:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > According to [this](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/20/1093168/-Was-the-fighting-over-when-Zimmerman-shot-Trayvon-) cite, one witness heard Zimmerman announce at some point that he had a gun. The “at some point” was after the shot. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/782 "2012-05-24T02:20:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll wait for the trial, when we get to see all the evidence, before I wish ill on Zimmerman. And, maybe I’m wrong, but I thought **Bricker** explained that a civil trial isn’t in the cards. > > Still, he’s always going to be the guy who shot the black teenager, and that’s going to make him a villain to 10 people for every 1 who thinks he’s a stand-up guy. Let’s see what that ratio is after the trial. Polls indicate he’s gaining in support right now. I won’t wish him ill just yet, but he better not profit from this when he’s acquitted, either. I have visions of him appearing as a Fox News Correspondent, or even running for office. I mean, it’s Florida, so it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/783 "2012-05-24T02:24:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The “at some point” was after the shot. Cite? The article puts the “I’ve got a gun” comments before the gun went off, not after. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/784 "2012-05-24T02:36:30Z")
I would think such an announcement rather pointless, after the fact. Those big ass caliber pistols lack all subtlety. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/785 "2012-05-24T02:38:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Cite? The article puts the “I’ve got a gun” comments before the gun went off, not after. Thank you for demonstrating just how biased the media coverage is (and how you swallow the lies hook, line and sinker) From the report by Serino - one of the investigators - on 3/13/2012: [The witness] articulated the sounds he heard as “ah, ah, ah,” and then he heard the same voice yelling, “help! help!” approximately twenty (20) times. He then heard a “pop,” ran upstairs, and then heard someone saying “I’ve got a gun, I’ve got a gun,” “take my gun from me.” ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/786 "2012-05-24T02:44:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Just because I haven’t constructed my own personal narrative of what happened between Martin and Zimmerman doesn’t mean that I have no opinions on any issues being discussed or that I have nothing to say. Specifically, my opinion is that anyone who does construct their own personal narrative is on a fool’s errand and engaging in pointless mental masturbation. So your opinion is no one should have an opinion on what happened that night? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/787 "2012-05-24T02:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > …[The witness] articulated the sounds he heard as “ah, ah, ah,” and then he heard the same voice yelling, “help! help!” approximately twenty (20) times. He then heard a “pop,” ran upstairs, and then heard someone saying “I’ve got a gun, I’ve got a gun,” “take my gun from me.” > … Of course, you checked to see that wasn’t one of the witnesses who changed their testimony? You did that, right? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/788 "2012-05-24T02:48:54Z")
Is it too much to ask that agenda-ridden attempts at snark not be made every 3rd fricken post? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/789 "2012-05-24T02:50:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Of course, you checked to see that wasn’t one of the witnesses who changed their testimony? You did that, right? Yes, I did. Now, do you think it is incredibly dishonest for the media to report "a witness heard Zimmerman say “I’ve got a gun” when the full quote is as I cited it? And if you google you will see multiple MSM sources repeating the dishonest quote. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/790 "2012-05-24T02:57:40Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > Is it too much to ask that agenda-ridden attempts at snark not be made every 3rd fricken post? Nobody says you have to read them. See my name, pick up your little basket and skip along, skip along. I’ll get over it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/791 "2012-05-24T03:04:42Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Let’s see what that ratio is after the trial. Polls indicate he’s gaining in support right now. > > I won’t wish him ill just yet, but he better not profit from this when he’s acquitted, either. I have visions of him appearing as a Fox News Correspondent, or even running for office. I mean, it’s Florida, so it’s possible. Your visions are unrealistic. Go with the mundane-- a book deal. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/792 "2012-05-24T03:05:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, I did. > > Now, do you think it is incredibly dishonest for the media to report "a witness heard Zimmerman say “I’ve got a gun” when the full quote is as I cited it? And if you google you will see multiple MSM sources repeating the dishonest quote. That’s why I read these threads regularly (although I also read through the entire 183 pages of discovery documents). I agree it was misleading, but that’s what sells papers - and it cuts both ways as far as bias - for this and most news stories. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/793 "2012-05-24T03:06:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your visions are unrealistic. Go with the mundane-- a book deal. That goes without saying. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/794 "2012-05-24T03:15:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s possibly the most idiotic thing I’ve read in any of these threads, which is really saying something. Imagine for a moment that it’s someone you care about who’s attacked - your brother or son, for example. They’ve been punched to the ground, and are having their head beaten against the concrete. A likely outcome of this is that they will suffer brain damage, possibly severe. Imagine further that you end up being the one caring for them, presumably for the rest of your life. Will it be a comfort to you that they could have avoided this, but were too “manly” to do so? > > If you really think so, you’re a clueless moron of the highest order. The sort of brain damage Zimmerman suffered? My brother and son have better sense than to go around playing cop with a loaded gun and they could certainly hold their own against a skinny teen. But lets’s say they were retarded and armed and followed someone fleeing from them thus scaring the bejeesus out of them. Let’s say they were too stupid to figure out somebody they were chasing might turn flight into fight when cornered. If they had then gotten the worst of the fight I think they would realize their own culpability in the situation and at the very least not shoot to kill. It sure as hell wouldn’t be a comfort to me to know they had initiated someones death with their dumbassery. I understand being a man might not be your forte’ but to kill someone in a fight you yourself initiated and not with your hands where it is fair (as you both could accidently) but with a gun which is a total negation of fairness and decency is a puss move of the highest order. A real man doesn’t kill if he can at all help it. He isn’t so afraid of losing his own life that he takes anothers if there is any another way. I’ll give an example. A buddy of mine was under his car changing his universal joint in Memphis when he felt a knife in his belly. He said sure he would give him his wallet and then reached under his seat and pulled out his gun. I would have just tossed my wallet because no amount of money is worth a life to me but I understand he was concerned about the knife and the possibility of injury or death. Did he kill the guy? He was an imminent threat. No. He shot him in the knee. And HE didn’t even initiate the confrontation. THAT is an example of a man. Oh but what if he had been killed or injured? It IS a possibility. That’s why it takes courage. Go on and kill anyone you think might pose a danger if you chase them. It’s legal in Florida. And total puss. Particularly when they only have their hands and you have been chasing them without a uniform or any damn authority at all and making them fear for their life. Obviously it was a well founded fear. Lastly it’s not a fair argument to ask a parent if they want a live coward or a dead (or brain dead) hero. Soldiers families have to make that decision all the time and I know what they would pick. Unfortunately for them they raised their sons and daughters better. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/795 "2012-05-24T03:29:04Z")
Yep, moron. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/796 "2012-05-24T03:34:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yep, moron. Indeed you are. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/797 "2012-05-24T10:46:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Thank you for demonstrating just how biased the media coverage is (and how you swallow the lies hook, line and sinker) If it were true that I swallow lies without scrutiny, I wouldn’t have asked for a cite or prefaced my statements as “according to this cite”. Thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/798 "2012-05-24T11:52:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If it makes you feel better, Zimmerman can approach Martin and say, “OK, boy, what kind of stuff you been stealin’ tonight?” > > That doesn’t change the legal analysis one iota, and it removes the pleasantries you find so unlikely. Given the situation, wouldn’t that be very close to fighting words? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/799 "2012-05-24T12:39:03Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > So your opinion is no one should have an opinion on what happened that night? Thanks! If I may, I believe the counselor is advising that the _sharing_ of opinions is pointless mental masturbation, i.e., wasted time which could be much better spent on the regular kind. (Hence his frequent, extended absences.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/800 "2012-05-24T13:11:01Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Given the situation, wouldn’t that be very close to fighting words? Well… maybe, but I don’t think so. Let’s talk about fighting words. First, let’s be clear on what the concept is: the doctrine is intended to remove _First Amendment_ protection from words that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It does not, by itself, criminalize the utterance of those words. The “fighting words” doctrine simply says that if a state makes such words criminal, the speaker cannot invoke the First Amendment to protect himself from prosecution. Maybe the best example of how high that bar has to be is in _R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul_, 505 U.S. 377 (1992). A cross was burned on the front lawn of an African-American family, which, I think you’ll agree, is “speech” (at least in the broader sense of expressive conduct). Now, of course that’s against the law for reasons having nothing to do with the content of the expression; you can’t burn a cross or anything other piece of wood on my property, period. But the city of Minneapolis chose to charge the burner with a hate crime, under a city ordinance that read: > [@](#): > > Whoever places on public or private property, a symbol, object, appellation, characterization or graffiti, including, but not limited to, a burning cross or Nazi swastika, which one knows or has reasonable grounds to know arouses anger, alarm or resentment in others on the basis of race, color, creed, religion or gender commits disorderly conduct and shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. The Supreme Court overturned the conviction: [ > [@](#): > > As explained earlier, see supra, at 386, the reason why fighting words are categorically excluded from the protection of the First Amendment is not that their content communicates any particular idea, but that their content embodies a particularly intolerable (and socially unnecessary) mode of expressing whatever idea the speaker wishes to convey. St. Paul has not singled out an especially offensive mode of expression—it has not, for example, selected for prohibition only those fighting words that communicate ideas in a threatening (as opposed to a merely obnoxious) manner. Rather, it has proscribed fighting words of whatever manner that communicate messages of racial, gender, or religious intolerance. Selectivity of this sort creates the possibility that the city is seeking to handicap the expression of particular ideas. That possibility would alone be enough to render the ordinance presumptively invalid, but St. Paul’s comments and concessions in this case elevate the possibility to a certainty. Westboro Baptist’s (aka “God Hates Fags, Inc.”) displays have been similarly excused, even though it’s hard to imagine more fighting-inciteful words than those, expressed in the context of a military funeral. So why did I say “maybe” instead of an outright “no?” Because I haven’t looked at Florida’s laws with this question in mind. Maybe Florida has some law that could reach Zimmerman’s hypothetical phrase without overreaching into First Amendment protection territory. I have done more research on Florida law in the past month than I imagined I’d ever do in my life, so I’m going to pass on the initial invitation here, and say only that if someone else claims “OK, boy, what kind of stuff you been stealin’ tonight?” is violative of Florida law and that the law in question is NOT constitutionally infirm, have at it, with citations, please. I am happy to grade someone else’s work as long as I don’t have to do the heavy lifting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=41)