# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/881 "2012-05-26T12:42:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sometimes I can’t channel my inner Ghandi, I admit. Something tells me that a man arrested and imprisoned for six years isn’t your idol and standing your ground against someone based on the distinction between legal and common usage interpretations doesn’t rise to the level of non-violent dissent of Dandi shore. Hell, I don’t think insulting Tao’s Revenge would even qualify as violent insurrection. But hell, keep up the good fight man. Maybe one day lawyers will be paid a living wage. Sarvodaya and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/882 "2012-05-26T13:14:44Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > . > > But hell, keep up the good fight man. Maybe one day lawyers will be paid a living wage. Sarvodaya and all that. I was a public defender. Barbers made MORE than I did. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/883 "2012-05-26T14:26:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do personally feel that he has moral responsibility for this death, but that’s based on the scenario I have crafted in my mind about what happened. Well in your scenario, what exactly did Zimmerman do (or fail to do) which engendered moral responsibility on his part? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/884 "2012-05-26T16:38:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > **Steophan** , did he follow 911’s instructions or did he chase a scared kid through the dark? He was not instructed not to follow Martin, he was told he didn’t need to. This may seem like a hairsplitting point, but when it comes to determining whether his actions were criminally reckless, it’s pretty important. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/885 "2012-05-26T16:42:52Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > This is wrong. Nobody will kill him. They will merely stand their ground. After all, he has shown a propensity to shoot unarmed people. Nothing could be more natural than to defend yourself against a proven quickdraw by beating him to the draw. Skittles: taste the irony. You don’t seem to grasp the distinction between kill and murder. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/886 "2012-05-26T16:48:50Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well in your scenario, what exactly did Zimmerman do (or fail to do) which engendered moral responsibility on his part? In my personal narrative, Zimmerman was struck first by Martin, but then had an opportunity to withdraw. He should have taken the punch, withdrawn, and waited for the cops, now with a much better story to tell them than inchoate suspicion. I believe that instead he chose to exercise his legal right to defend himself, which, considering he created the problem,was not the thing to do. It makes sense to me that Martin might respond to an insulting question by having or hitting, but I don’t think he would continue a beat-down unless Zimmerman escalated by trying to strike back. Just my own personal narrative, imagination-based. ---
**Author:** ![Jamicat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jamicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamicat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/887 "2012-05-26T16:49:45Z")
Why didn’t Trayvon just keep running all the way home, if he thought he was being pursued by a creepy dude with a gun? Wasn’t he like a 100 yards away from where he was residing? Why stop, hide and lay in wait for creepy dude? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/888 "2012-05-26T17:27:54Z")
> [@Jamicat](#): > > Why didn’t Trayvon just keep running all the way home, if he thought he was being pursued by a creepy dude with a gun? Nobody will ever know, but I would guess it’s one of two possibilities: First, that Martin was in a subconscious dominance contest with Zimmerman and Martin felt (subconsciously) that by running away it was like submitting to and being humiliated by Zimmerman. Of course such an urge would have been exacerbated if Martin was in contact with his girlfriend at the time. Second, that Martin felt that Zimmerman was making homosexual advances towards him and was repulsed and disgusted and felt the urge to beat up Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/889 "2012-05-26T17:50:59Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > One is omission and the other is commission, though. They are both omission. The traditional method of infanticide is by exposure, at least in western cultures. There are some references to religious sacrifices, which would be commission. I’m not sure why you care about the distinction. Most moral codes have sins of omission and commission. > [@](#): > > Without being aware of every variable (as humans never are), isn’t it better to seek consent from individuals or provide palliative care? The post you quoted had incorrect premises too: both in that morality necessarily increases the survival chances of a group and that evolution works at the group level. In reality, evolution works at the kin level and evolutionary stable strategies emerge over time. These strategies can be worse for any constituent member than a planned society and artificially constructed morals can contravene evolutionary stable strategies (though, they’ll be subject to invasion by alternative moralities). Dawkins points out that certain human behaviors do not increase our chances of reproductive success yet we engage in them for pleasure anyway. You obviously didn’t understand the post I linked. Morals are cultural standards, not individual standards. Moral standards don’t necessarily make sense. They were evolved by prescientific cultures that only have loose ideas of cause and effect. Ogg ate clam, Ogg died, Clams are taboo. Cultures that evolved moral codes that work, survive. The trouble is that moral evolution is a rather chancy thing. The trouble is that we have a lot of morality that evolved in a agrarian technology and a lot of it doesn’t actually make sense in a post industrial society. I actually think this is a pretty interesting discussion, but it way off topic. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/890 "2012-05-26T17:52:19Z")
Damn, **brazil84** , really though? Those questions have been asked before. Plenty of posters have suggested that Trayvon didn’t want the crazy, creepy man to know where he ‘lived’. I think that’s much more plausible than your two scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/891 "2012-05-26T18:06:22Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Damn, **brazil84** , really though? Yes really. > [@](#): > > Those questions have been asked before. So what? > [@](#): > > Plenty of posters have suggested that Trayvon didn’t want the crazy, creepy man to know where he ‘lived’. I think that’s much more plausible than your two scenarios. I don’t think so – if Martin’s primary concern was to make sure that Zimmerman did not learn where he lived, the obvious thing to do would be to run away and sneak back later. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/892 "2012-05-26T18:10:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Well, I don’t think carrying a gun is the problem so much as firing a gun at close range in what was a fistfight. If he’s the sort to turn a fistfight into a shooting, maybe carrying a gun is a problem for\* him.\* You seem to equate fistfight with some sort of school yard altercation. Over 800 people are beaten to death every year in the U.S. The last time I checked pounding someone head against the sidewalk isn’t in the marquis of queensbury rules. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/893 "2012-05-26T18:25:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes really. You just psychoanalyzed somebody you know very liittle about. I know it’s a speculation/imho thread but both those theories are out there. > [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t think so – if Martin’s primary concern was to make sure that Zimmerman did not learn where he lived, the obvious thing to do would be to run away and sneak back later. I believe that was his intention; to hide or evade until Zimmerman left. Once he realized Zimmerman wasn’t giving up on the search. Trayvon decided to confront Zimmerman, verbally(I’m not conceding TM was 1st to strike). ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/894 "2012-05-26T18:50:28Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > You just psychoanalyzed somebody you know very liittle about. So what? I know human nature pretty well. **Jamicat** asked a question and I answered it. > [@](#): > > I know it’s a speculation/imho thread but both those theories are out there. Again, so what? > [@](#): > > I believe that was his intention; to hide or evade until Zimmerman left. Once he realized Zimmerman wasn’t giving up on the search. Trayvon decided to confront Zimmerman, verbally(I’m not conceding TM was 1st to strike). That’s silly, he could have easily disappeared for 15 minutes or half an hour or longer. As opposed to a minute or two. Besides which, confronting someone doesn’t serve the purpose of concealing where you live since it just draws attention to you. Unless perhaps you kill them. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/895 "2012-05-26T19:07:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Me, too. But not for the same reason you apparently do. > > Unless you mean a 42 USC § 1983 action, which… actually might have some legs. Presumably one of the “rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws” is the right to continue breathing, and Zimmerman deprived Martin of that right by using Florida law. > > Quite frankly, this is the first time this mess has brought a smile to my face. I am NOT a fan of federal overreach, but when state law forecloses every path, I have to say this is a creative and clever proposal. I don’t know the caselaw for 1983 actions, but on the text, it seems colorable. Research from someone who knows civil law would be appreciated, though, because it’s impossible to read this and assume you know how it works. > > Well, now you’re back in my wheelhouse. > > No. So far as I am aware, he had no interaction with federal agents, and even if he did, you have to prove the truth of the underlying lie before perjury even is possible. > > The police officers in the Rodney King case were convicted under 18 U.S.C. § 242 of violating the victim’s constitutional rights under color of law. This requires a close nexus between the accused and state or federal authority. In other words, a private citizen, acting on his own, cannot be convicted under this statute unless his actions are so intertwined with the state as to make him an agent of the state. And before a crowd of hopefuls leaps on that sentence… no, using a general state law to shoot someone without consequence is not nearly enough. I didn’t actually read all of chapter 21. I just skimmed enough to determine the other sections didn’t apply. I still don’t Crump would bother, but a lawyer wanting to make a reputation might. The FBI is actually considering charging Zimmerman with a Federal Hate Crime. [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/) I seem to recall a recent case where a defendant was convicted of federal perjury even though the statements weren’t made to a federal agent. I’ll see if I can find a reference. I think it involved evidence collected by state agents that was used in a federal indictment. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/896 "2012-05-26T19:13:23Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Nobody will ever know, but I would guess it’s one of two possibilities: > > First, that Martin was in a subconscious dominance contest with Zimmerman and Martin felt (subconsciously) that by running away it was like submitting to and being humiliated by Zimmerman. Of course such an urge would have been exacerbated if Martin was in contact with his girlfriend at the time. > > Second, that Martin felt that Zimmerman was making homosexual advances towards him and was repulsed and disgusted and felt the urge to beat up Zimmerman. For some people, fantasy can be healthy. You, however, should probably resist it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/897 "2012-05-26T19:22:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > For some people, fantasy can be healthy. You, however, should probably resist it. If by “fantasy,” you mean “reasonable guesses based on available evidence which guesses happen to offend Leftist bigots”; and “should probably resist” means “should probably resist if you want to avoid offending Leftist bigots,” then yes I would agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/898 "2012-05-26T19:23:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Luci is like the illiterate guy who always orders the special of the day–he’s found ways to get around displaying his complete lack of any intelligence whatsoever Yes, I think you’ve put your finger on it. ETA: Perhaps his handle itself was meant to be sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/899 "2012-05-26T19:26:54Z")
Doesn’t a lot of this hinge upon an unanswered, and maybe unanswerable, question: when did Martin know that Zimmerman had a gun? As I said before, somehow I had the assumption that it was holstered in the small of his back, and hence unseen. But what if it wasn’t? If Martin feared this “creepy” guy, and found out when standing closer that he was carrying a gun, I think the needle on his “reasonable fear” meter goes up some notches. Faced with the prospect of trying to outrun a bullet, or attacking Zimmerman to prevent him reaching the gun…I think the second choice seems obvious. By this reasoning, we arrive at _another_ goddam plausible scenario: that Martin did in fact attack Zimmerman, but thought he had no choice. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/900 "2012-05-26T19:28:51Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes, I think you’ve put your finger on it. ETA: Perhaps his handle itself was meant to be sarcastic. As always when one matches wits with you, one slinks away battered, bruised, and regretful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=46)