# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/81 "2012-03-29T16:17:29Z")
Airbeck and mol, you guys are free to form opinions all you want. And I’m free to say you are idiots who rush tl jjdgement for doing so. Also, it’s clear that people are doing much more than just forming opknions–they are constructing a narrative and then becoming wedded to it to the point that they believe all subsequent facts support their narrative. That is the point of me mentioning possible alternatives (such as a video showing blood or reversed police reports), to show how any subsequent fact can be weaved into the same narrative you’ve already constructed. I had hoped people would learn their lesson with the duke tape case etc., bit that appears not to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/82 "2012-03-29T16:22:47Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > Sure, have an opinion, but if truly objective we all know this whole thing is a mess and until the media sorts more stuff out it is going to be like ping pong. > > I am more interested in truth, and we haven’t even read the witness statements. There are facts out there that are crucial to a reasonable opinion. A lot of them. I want to see tangible measurements of angle of entry. I want to see autopsy photos, I want to see the EMS records from the fire department. Then, at least I am doing somewhat of a service to the truth with my opinion. If there hadn’t been a public outcry, an in-depth investigation wouldn’t have taken place, much less a trial. It’s all very well to tell people to simmer down until the investigation is complete, but this matter would have been considered done and dusted if people weren’t screaming about it. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/83 "2012-03-29T16:23:17Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > You might want to wait for the media to sort it out. Me, I prefer the courts sort it out. I have no need of seeing all that data. With it, my opinion will still just be my opinion. Somewhat more informed, but still meaningless. I don’t believe we will get a criminal trial out of it. Probably just civil cases against Zimmerman and the PD. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/84 "2012-03-29T16:33:52Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Airbeck and mol, you guys are free to form opinions all you want. And I’m free to say you are idiots who rush tl jjdgement for doing so. Also, it’s clear that people are doing much more than just forming opknions–they are constructing a narrative and then becoming wedded > to it to the point that they believe all subsequent facts support their narrative. I haven’t seen any subsequent facts that don’t support the view that Zim is a murderer. Have you? If so, do share. No, Trayvon being suspended from school does not count. I read what happened, thought WTF like everyone else, then more facts unfolded and it turned into WTF x 1,000. If something turns up that would suggest old Zimmy wasn’t out of line, then I’ll change my mind. Thing is up until this point, **nothing has**. > [@](#): > > That is the point of me mentioning possible alternatives (such as a video showing blood or reversed police reports), to show how any subsequent fact can be weaved into the same narrative you’ve already constructed. What? Your point was if new facts presented were inconsistent with the old ones, we should reassess our opinions. Yes, okay, that is correct. Are you done then? Good. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/85 "2012-03-29T16:34:06Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Are you an idiot? Or do you just feel the need to make a half a dozen posts saying nothing but “I don’t know”? There will never be enough information to establish the metaphysical certitude you’re looking for. Why would you require that, in this particular case? I would just like to read the witness statements, look at the fire dept. records, and have some sort of idea of how the bullet entered Trayvon’s body. I’d like to see photos of any injuries if they exist. That’s all. I think just the Fire Dept. records and witness statements might be enough. Not much really, and they certainly exist. I don’t like being yanked around by the media. If you want to be, that’s fine. But, there are those who now disbelieve anything that shows a different side to “guilty guilty guilty.” Somehow the police report is a lie since it mentions injuries to Zimmerman. The ABC tape was the end-all-be-all, but now that it might show something it doesn’t really show the truth either. But, since I am OK applying the SYG law since it was in effect when this happened, that could be the whole disconnect. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/86 "2012-03-29T16:40:47Z")
Anyone with an opinion about anything in this case is an idiot. Ok, got it rand. Does that count for those that are defending Zimmerman, as well as those that think he was a reckless, irresponsible idiot for getting out of his car with a gun and following an unknown individual down a dark street? If so, then you’ve just called almost everyone an idiot. Congrats on being one of the few non-idiots then. Must be lonely though. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/87 "2012-03-29T16:46:45Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Anyone with an opinion about anything in this case is an idiot. Ok, got it rand. > > Does that count for those that are defending Zimmerman, as well as those that think he was a reckless, irresponsible idiot for getting out of his car with a gun and following an unknown individual down a dark street? If so, then you’ve just called almost everyone an idiot. Congrats on being one of the few non-idiots then. Must be lonely though. Are you sarcastically addressing that to me or it really to **Rand Rover?** I do believe Zimmerman was an idiot for following. I don’t know Florida’s concealed carry laws, but the “with the gun part” doesn’t jar me. I carry concealed all the time so if I am out of the car 9/10 times the gun is with me. I support a thorough investigation. I believe that but/for Zimmerman being an idiot and following this wouldn’t have happened. I don’t know how the SYG law works with negligence, but I think I’d be fine with finding Zimmerman civilly liable for wrongful death using a negligence standard. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/88 "2012-03-29T17:06:47Z")
I addressed rand by name, I was directly responding to him when he said this: “you guys are free to form opinions all you want. And I’m free to say you are idiots who rush tl jjdgement for doing so.” He didn’t qualify what sort of opinion, so that includes everyone with any opinion whatsoever about anything to do with this case. We are all idiots now I guess. As far as the ‘with a gun’ thing, what I mean is that you are going into a situation that very likely is going to result in some kind of confrontation, and you have a gun. And according to the 911 tape, a hot temper and seem to be on a mission to make sure they don’t ‘always get away’. The gun itself is not the point I’m making, its all the rest of it that makes adding the gun to the equation incredibly risky and stupid. And of course entirely avoidable. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/89 "2012-03-29T17:12:54Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I addressed rand by name, I was directly responding to him when he said this: > > “you guys are free to form opinions all you want. And I’m free to say you are idiots who rush tl jjdgement for doing so.” > > He didn’t qualify what sort of opinion, so that includes everyone with any opinion whatsoever about anything to do with this case. We are all idiots now I guess. > > As far as the ‘with a gun’ thing, what I mean is that you are going into a situation that very likely is going to result in some kind of confrontation, and you have a gun. And according to the 911 tape, a hot temper and seem to be on a mission to make sure they don’t ‘always get away’. The gun itself is not the point I’m making, its all the rest of it that makes adding the gun to the equation incredibly risky and stupid. And of course entirely avoidable. Cool, then. Sorry for the implication. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/90 "2012-03-29T17:13:43Z")
I don’t see marks on the parts of Zimmerman that I can see, but you can be attacked and forced to resort to lethal force to stop the attack without being massively bet up. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/91 "2012-03-29T17:18:04Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > I don’t see marks on the parts of Zimmerman that I can see, but you can be attacked and forced to resort to lethal force to stop the attack without being massively bet up. Except that Zimmerman was very specific about the nature of the attack he alleges happened: that he was beaten around the head, that the back of his head was slammed repeatedly into the ground, and that his nose was broken. Then he says he shot Martin at close range. Does he look like that happened to him? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/92 "2012-03-29T17:20:46Z")
But Zimmerman claimed his head was pounded against a sidewalk and that he took a punch to the nose. There should be some marks to show this. Forget about “massively beat up”. We haven’t even seen objective evidence that the kid touched him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/93 "2012-03-29T17:27:39Z")
Imagine, if you can, that someone is sitting on you. You shoot them with a nine-millimeter gun at a range of …what? a foot away? If you shot them with a .22, there would be blood. .32 or .38, much more. A nine millimeter is roughly equivalent to a .45 caliber. Martin was not, not! sitting on top of Zimmerman when he shot him. No fucking way. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/94 "2012-03-29T17:31:07Z")
Laudenum makes a good, if possibly irrelevant, point, though; people who are looking to see if Zimmerman was seriously injured as constituting justification for using lethal force are wrong. Zimmerman only had to be afraid of being seriously injured. He did not have to actually be seriously injured. If Zimmerman’s story were true - that Martin ambushed him without provocation and got him down and was pounding him in the face - then he’s justified in shooting Martin. You don’t have to wait to be injured, nor do you have to be an expert in close combat and be able to perfectly predict what the results of a given punch are going to be. Zimmerman’s story as he has allegedly given it would be sufficient to merit pulling the trigger; you’re not supposed to have to wait until you hear something break and say “okay, now I’ve suffered a fracture, so I’m good to start shooting.” The problem raised now is that Zimmerman’s story, as we have heard it reported, is hard to reasonably believe given the evidence. It’s not that punching him in the face and slamming his head into a sidewalk isn’t justification for shooting. It is justification, legally. It’s that we now have a video where \*Zimmerman looks exactly like a guy who HASN’T been punched in the face and hasn’t had his head slammed into a sidewalk. \* So that part of his story appears to be a lie. And if he’s lying about that you have to doubt his entire version of the events. ETA: elucidator, I’m not convinced by that argument. You don’t know how this sort of thing happens. Martin could bled out profusely, or the blood could have pooled inside his shirt or his hoodie; he was wearing two layers of clothing, at least. Or it just might not have started suprting out until Martin fell away. This isn’t “Dexter” where blood explodes everywhere out of explosive squibs. The lack of blood on Zimmerman’s shirt doesn’t tell us anything, really; what tells us something is that Zimmerman said he was seriously injured, and if that were true then he got an entirely new head between the incident and the time that video was shot, because there’s not a mark on him. He looks just fine. **That** makes his story unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/95 "2012-03-29T17:58:03Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > And, I didn’t see it linked here, but **brazil84** posted it in the other thread: [http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/](http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/) That might be an injury to his head. Let’s wait and see. A bit off topic, but what the holy hell is wrong with ABC? They post that exclusive video that’s supposed to be VITALLY IMPORTANT in determining whether he had a head injury or not, and then they plonk their NEWS EXCLUSIVE logo directly over his head for 90% of it! Way to go geniuses. Anyway, it’s only been a month; if he had a head injury bad enough to need stitches there should still be a fresh scar there, right? I don’t know if Trayvon punched Zimmerman or not. I don’t know if Zimmerman is telling the truth about his side of what happened or not. All I see is as details come out, all the sides of the story are getting more and more complicated. I think the police have done _Zimmerman_ a great disservice (as well as Trayvon of course) by not arresting and charging him immediately; if a proper investigation had been done right off the bat he wouldn’t have had this month of trial by media speculation and outrage instead of a full and rational examination of facts and witness accounts. He might even have a fair trial, which frankly is all Trayvon’s family wanted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/96 "2012-03-29T18:00:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But Zimmerman claimed his head was pounded against a sidewalk and that he took a punch to the nose. There should be some marks to show this. > > Forget about “massively beat up”. We haven’t even seen objective evidence that the kid touched him. You are acting like we should have seen such evidence by now, that the fact we haven’t is important. Why? Do you think the police routinely post everything they know on the Internet? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/97 "2012-03-29T18:04:39Z")
We have gotten quite a bit of information from police “sources”. Well, sort of “information”. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/98 "2012-03-29T18:18:41Z")
So? Does the fact that we have some information from police mean that there’s no info the police have that we don’t have? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/99 "2012-03-29T18:40:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So? Does the fact that we have some information from police mean that there’s no info the police have that we don’t have? No it doesn’t. Should we just close all the threads now? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/100 "2012-03-29T18:45:22Z")
Why would you think I want these threads to be closed? They are good for laughs–lots of idiots think their opinion based kn scanty facts actually means something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=6)