# Time to officially Pit the Sanford Police Dept and their cover-up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108 "2012-03-29T01:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/161 "2012-04-01T21:53:58Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “harass,” since by Zimmerman’s own admission, he watched Martin; called the authorities about him; and then attempted to follow him. The legal question in your scenario will be whether Zimmerman engaged in any behavior which forfeited his right of self-defense. Is there any evidence at all that this happened? You just summarized it pretty well yourself. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/162 "2012-04-01T22:05:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > 😕 I agree that “\*f Zimmerman attempted to detain Martin, or harassed him in some way, it would not be consistent with his story at all, and would still be consistent with his injuries.” > > I’m not sure what you mean by “harass,” since by Zimmerman’s own admission, he watched Martin; called the authorities about him; and then attempted to follow him. The legal question in your scenario will be whether Zimmerman engaged in any behavior which forfeited his right of self-defense. Is there any evidence at all that this happened? > > The main arguments I have heard from “Team Trayvon” are that (1) based on the size disparity, it’s not possible that Martin could have sucker punched Zimmerman, brought him down, and started beating him; and (2) Zimmerman is uninjured and therefore his story is a lie. I’m not a lawyer in Florida, so I can’t answer questions pertaining to the minutiae of the law in that jurisdiction. I can say what I’ve said before, that the neighborhood watch captain is indistinguishable from, and has no more authority than, the neighborhood pedo. I would not want my son to wait until he was chained up in someone’s basement to defend himself. I’m not sure that you have a right to follow people around. In fact I know several women who called the police because a man was following them. The point is that in order for Martin to “sucker punch” Zimmerman, he would have had to be awfully close to him. Considering Zimmerman’s documented history, I would need a lot of evidence to the contrary not to assume he was responsible for any confrontation thaht followed. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/163 "2012-04-01T22:33:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You just summarized it pretty well yourself. So according to you, the main evidence that Zimmerman started a fight with Martin is (1) Zimmerman’s larger size; and (2) Zimmerman’s apparent lack of injury. Do I understand you correctly? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/164 "2012-04-01T22:38:16Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > I’m not sure that you have a right to follow people around. In fact I know several women who called the police because a man was following them. It’s not so much a question of whether you have a right to do so as whether doing so forfeits your right to claim self-defense if attacked. I’m not an expert on self-defense law either, but I’m pretty confident that if you follow a stranger in your gated community and they react by physically attacking you, you have not forfeited your right to self-defense. > [@](#): > > Considering Zimmerman’s documented history, So according to you, the main evidence that Zimmerman engaged in behavior which forfeited his right to self-defense is character evidence, i.e. evidence that he engaged in violent behavior in the past. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/165 "2012-04-01T22:43:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It’s not so much a question of whether you have a right to do so as whether doing so forfeits your right to claim self-defense if attacked. > > I’m not an expert on self-defense law either, but I’m pretty confident that if you follow a stranger in your gated community and they react by physically attacking you, you have not forfeited your right to self-defense. > > So according to you, the main evidence that Zimmerman engaged in behavior which forfeited his right to self-defense is character evidence, i.e. evidence that he engaged in violent behavior in the past. Is that right? I swear, you would look at a camel’s broken back, then determine that the straw had absolutely nothing to do with it because you examined each piece and found that _not one piece_ was capable of doing the deed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/166 "2012-04-01T22:51:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So according to you, the main evidence that Zimmerman started a fight with Martin is (1) Zimmerman’s larger size; and (2) Zimmerman’s apparent lack of injury. Do I understand you correctly? No. You summarized it yourself. Zimmerman was first the stalker, then the attacker. So how do you give him credit for acting in _self-defense_? Defense against _what_ exactly? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/167 "2012-04-01T22:51:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I swear, you would look at a camel’s broken back, then determine that the straw had absolutely nothing to do with it because you examined each piece and found that _not one piece_ was capable of doing the deed. I’m not sure what your point is here. If it turns out that Zimmerman really has injuries consistent with his story, that exonerates quite a lot of straw, no? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/168 "2012-04-01T22:52:46Z")
But it _doesn’t_ so turn out, does it? Are you willing to accept that water is wet, or do you insist on a great deal further research before you reach a conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/169 "2012-04-01T22:54:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No. You summarized it yourself. I have no idea what your point is here. What is the evidence that Zimmerman forfeited his right to self defense? Please just tell me rather than asserting that I summarized it. > [@](#): > > So how do you give him credit for acting in _self-defense_? Defense against _what_ exactly? Assuming that he has injuries consistent with his story, it would be defense against an attack by the hands and fists of Martin. Which attack is corroborated by his injuries. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/170 "2012-04-01T22:56:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But it _doesn’t_ so turn out, does it? I don’t know yet. In the pictures and video which have been linked to, there does appear to be a discoloration on the back of Zimmerman’s head. And it does appear that there is something wrong with his nose. > [@](#): > > Are you willing to accept that water is wet, Yes. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/171 "2012-04-01T23:04:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I swear, you would look at a camel’s broken back, then determine that the straw had absolutely nothing to do with it because you examined each piece and found that _not one piece_ was capable of doing the deed. Wow, that’s a great way of expressing my whole problem with the pro-Zimmerman/“let’s not rush to judge” side of the debate. Every single piece of evidence that goes against Zimmerman’s story immediately generates some kind of explanation that requires us to discard the more probable hypotheses in favor of the least probable. In isolation, yes it’s very possible for a broken nose, for instance, to not gush like a blood fountain. It’s also possible that a man with a broken nose _and_ a battered skull would delay hospital care until the next day. It’s also possible that the EMT would not see fit to dress any wounds associated with a broken nose and a battered skull. And it’s also possible that these wounds would be invisible on camera, as would blood stains. But how many angels must dance on the head of a pin before some folks reach the tipping point for skepticism? The crazy thing is the list of improbabilities I just rattled off are just the tip of the iceberg. Martin going violently and irrationally apeshit on an armed man who actively pursued him for no good reason is perhaps the biggest one of them all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/172 "2012-04-01T23:07:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But how many angels must dance on the head of a pin before some folks reach the tipping point for skepticism? For some people, if the goal is defending a white angel against a black thug or annoying liberals, there is simply no bridge too far. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/173 "2012-04-01T23:09:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I disagree. From the video, it appears that something is wrong with Zimmerman’s nose. Also, there appears to be some sort of discoloration on the back of his head. No, there really isn’t. The guy looks fine. It’d be interesting to do the reverse of Bricker’s experiment here, and show the video to a bunch of people who aren’t familiar with the case (they are out there) and ask them “So what was wrong with the guy in the cuffs?” I’m quite confident not one would see a wound on the back of his head, since there is not one there. We get a decent view of its from multiple angles and there just is not a wound there. His nose might have been wounded - you can’t tell - but the back of his head, which unfortunately for him is shaven, is free of injury, from what we can see. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/174 "2012-04-01T23:11:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I have no idea what your point is here. What is the evidence that Zimmerman forfeited his right to self defense? In that he was not the defender. Duh. > [@](#): > > Assuming that he has injuries consistent with his story And just why would anyone want to make an assumption contrary to the facts in evidence? > [@](#): > > which attack is corroborated by his injuries. What is the evidence for there being any? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/175 "2012-04-01T23:25:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What is the evidence for there being any? Pssst… For some folks here, evidence = unsubstantiated rumors, or statements by the shooter’s relatives. In this case it appears that he thinks evidence = enhanced images published by the Daily Caller. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/176 "2012-04-01T23:35:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Wow, that’s a great way of expressing my whole problem with the pro-Zimmerman/“let’s not rush to judge” side of the debate. > > Every single piece of evidence that goes against Zimmerman’s story immediately generates some kind of explanation that requires us to discard the more probable hypotheses in favor of the least probable. > > In isolation, yes it’s very possible for a broken nose, for instance, to not gush like a blood fountain. It’s also possible that a man with a broken nose _and_ a battered skull would delay hospital care until the next day. It’s also possible that the EMT would not see fit to dress any wounds associated with a broken nose and a battered skull. And it’s also possible that these wounds would be invisible on camera, as would blood stains. I think you are overstating the case here, since there does appear to be something in the video. But more importantly, you are completely ignoring the fact that there is a police report out there where the policeman puts in writing that Zimmerman appeared to be injured. Yes, it’s possible that the policeman was flat out lying but it’s reasonable to demand quite a bit of evidence before rejecting this report. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/177 "2012-04-01T23:38:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In that he was not the defender. Duh. Again, I have no idea what your point is or even why you are evading my question. But it does appear that you are. Perhaps you have a coherent argument somewhere, but I’m not going to invest any more energy trying to tease it out of you. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/178 "2012-04-01T23:43:10Z")
> [@Kernel Sanders](#): > > No, there really isn’t. The guy looks fine. Let me ask you this: Do you see a discoloration on the back of his head [here](http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/). (Where the yellow arrows are pointing)? If so, how do you account for it? Is it just a trick of the light? A photoshop job? And are you confident that it is not an injury? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/179 "2012-04-02T00:00:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Again, I have no idea what your point is The gods themselves contend in vain. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108/180 "2012-04-02T00:02:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Let me ask you this: Do you see a discoloration on the back of his head [here](http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/). (Where the yellow arrows are pointing)? > > If so, how do you account for it? Is it just a trick of the light? A photoshop job? And are you confident that it is not an injury? I’m not even confident that there is any discoloration. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-officially-pit-the-sanford-police-dept-and-their-cover-up/617108.md?page=10)