# Time to repeal 17th amendment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385 "2005-04-14T23:58:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/1 "2005-04-14T23:58:45Z")
I’m not sure how much more clearly to frame this debate. Is it time to repeal the 17th amendment? Should Senators still be beholden to direct electors and thereby also “special interests?” It seems to me that, in the original intent, there was less chance for corruption and influence, since the Senators weren’t directly elected by the population at large, but rather were selected from the House. What say you? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/2 "2005-04-15T00:18:56Z")
Do you want a Senate to be 70-30 Republicans, when they, say, hold a one-seat HoR lead in 35 of the states, while Democrats are bunched in the other 15? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/3 "2005-04-15T00:20:14Z")
That is, in each of the 35. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/4 "2005-04-15T00:23:50Z")
Hmm…hadn’t thought about that, **cap,** but in all fairness, had the amendment never been passed, then for the last 40 or 60 some-odd years, when the Dems had a majority, it would’ve fallen the other way. I think it all comes out in the wash… ---
**Author:** ![chaparralv8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@chaparralv8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaparralv8)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/5 "2005-04-15T00:27:34Z")
Nope. The idea is that differences of opinion and viewpoint between the Senate and House are a good idea… ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/6 "2005-04-15T01:28:11Z")
The only thing worse than having a Senate full of career politicians (I’m trying to think of one who didn’t hold a political position before joining the Senate, and I’m at a loss) would be having a Senate full of career politicans who are only there because they’ve succeeded in sucking up to piddling state legislators. At least make them suck up to the people. There’s just a bit more dignity in that. 😉 (only half-joking) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/7 "2005-04-15T01:55:29Z")
For those who haven’t yet memorized each of the amendments by number, the 17th goes like this: > [@](#): > > [Election of U.S. senators; filling of vacancies; qualifications of electors.] > > The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State Legislatures. > > When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, that the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointment until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct. > > This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/8 "2005-04-15T03:10:55Z")
Yes. The 17th was an effort by the Roosevelt Administration to make the Senate more pliable. It was much like his court-packing scheme. The Senate and House were meant to be different. Now they are just two Houses. Senators are unable to do what is right by the light they have to see it, instead they must kiss up to the voters. Is it democracy? Yes, I suspect it is. Is it the best way to run the railroad? I suspect not. So I say repeal the 17th. Make all votes in the Senate secret so nobody can tell who voted which way on what. Why? Because I fear the power of The People. The Senate should be the chamber that cools the passions of The People. It should be the chamber that practices financial discipline, which says “no” when it must. Problems, there are many. How would the Civil Rights Act of 1964 have passed if the Senate was not elected? Could LBJ have pushed it through? A good and important question that I cannot answer. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/9 "2005-04-15T03:27:37Z")
**Paul in Saudi** , the 17th Amendment was passed in 1913, so I don’t know where you get the Roosevelt administration from. Teddy had been out of office since 1909, and FDR wouldn’t be elected until 1932. (I assume though that you were talking about FDR, since you mentioned packing the courts). Hell, the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) hadn’t even been passed yet, nor had the 19th (Women’s suffrage). Kinda hard for FDR to push forth an amendment when he wasn’t even there yet. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/10 "2005-04-15T03:50:26Z")
> [@DirkGntly](#): > > What say you? I’ll go you one better. The Senate should be abolished entirely, all its powers and functions devolved on the House of Representatives. See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=181890](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=181890) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/11 "2005-04-15T03:52:45Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > The Senate should be the chamber that cools the passions of The People. It should be the chamber that practices financial discipline, which says “no” when it must. Nonsense. Regardless of the mode of election, why should a legislative chamber that represents states-as-units be any more fiscally conservative, or otherwise levelheaded, than one elected by districts of equal population? ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/12 "2005-04-15T03:58:26Z")
A point that I’m surprised that everyone’s missed: One of the reasons why we shifted to direct elections was the tendency for candidates for Senate to bribe state legislatures in order to get elected to the Senate. If we return to Senators appointed by the state legislatures, expect a return to them being bribed for their vote. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/13 "2005-04-15T04:10:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nonsense. Regardless of the mode of election, why should a legislative chamber that represents states-as-units be any more fiscally conservative, or otherwise levelheaded, than one elected by districts of equal population? It will be less radical, at least, because to get elected, each senator has to appeal to a wider, more diverse group of people. It’s the difference between being the congressman from Ann Arbor and the senator from Michigan, or, alternatively, the congressman from Orange sounty and the senator from California. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/14 "2005-04-15T04:19:10Z")
For the record, if state legislatures still elected US Senators, this is what the US Senate’s makeup would currently be, by state (real numbers in parenthesis): AL: 2D (2R) AK: 2R (2R) AZ: 2R (2R) AR: 2D (2D) CA: 2D (2D) CO: 1R, 1D (1R, 1D) CT: 2D (2D) DE: 2R (2D) FL: 2R (1R, 1D) GA: 1R, 1D (2R) HI: 2D (2D) ID: 2R (2R) IL: 2D (2D) IN: 2R (1R, 1D) IA: 2R (1R, 1D) KS: 2R (2R) LA: 2D (1D, 1R) ME: 2D (2R) MD: 2D (2D) MA: 2D (2D) MI: 2R (2D) MN: 1D, 1R (1D, 1R) MS: 2D (2R) MO: 2R (2R) MT: 2R (1R, 1D) NB: 2R (1R, 1D) NV: 1R, 1D (1R, 1D) NH: 2R (2R) NJ: 1R, 1D (2D) NM: 2D (1R, 1D) NY: 2D (2D) NC: 2D (2R) ND: 2R (2D) OH: 2R (2R) OK: 1D, 1R (2R) OR: 1R, 1 uncertain (1R, 1D) PA: 2R (2R) RI: 2D (1D, 1R) SC: 2R (2R) TN: 2D (2R) TX: 1R, 1D (2R) UT: 2R (2R) VA: 2R (2R) WA: 2D (2D) WV: 2D (2D) WI: 2R (2D) WY: 2R (2R) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/15 "2005-04-15T04:22:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Regardless of the mode of election, why should a legislative chamber that represents states-as-units be any more fiscally conservative, or otherwise levelheaded, than one elected by districts of equal population? Most politics are those of gift-giving. This interest group get this, that one gets that. In exchange they provide money or votes for (re)election. Under the old rules, Senators were hardly ‘elected’ at all. They (as a practical matter) never ran for election and so had no need for bribes (now called ‘campaign contributions’) to fund campaigns. If a Senator no longer needs to raise huge amounts of money, he (or she) is less beholden to monied interests. If he does not need masses of votes, he is less beholden to mass organizations. He is more free to do The Right Thing. On the other hand, I am humbled by the discovery that the 17th was started in 1913. Still it did not take effect until when? ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/16 "2005-04-15T04:35:33Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > On the other hand, I am humbled by the discovery that the 17th was started in 1913. Still it did not take effect until when? 1. The first Senate election was a special election in Maryland. ---
**Author:** ![aahala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@aahala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aahala)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/17 "2005-04-15T04:44:51Z")
There was a good deal of problems in seating Senators before the 17th was passed. Many of the states required both their own houses to approve the choice and both often wouldn’t, leaving the state without one representative in the US Senate for long periods of time. The state legislatures were sometimes dividied by party and even when one party controled both the representation of one of the houses would favor some interest or area and the other was in opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/18 "2005-04-15T16:22:42Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > If a Senator no longer needs to raise huge amounts of money, he (or she) is less beholden to monied interests. If he does not need masses of votes, he is less beholden to mass organizations. > > He is more free to do The Right Thing. You think so? If you ever get the chance, read David Graham Phillip’s “The Treason of the Senate”. ---
**Author:** ![zetafunction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/57b2e6/32.png) [@zetafunction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zetafunction)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/19 "2005-04-15T16:31:39Z")
With all the gerrymandering going on in the HoR, hell no. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385/20 "2005-04-15T16:44:41Z")
Now Gerrymandering of the House, now there is an issue. I recall that once the Missouri legislature could not make districts, so the courts ruled that the state would vote as one big district electing however many Congresscritters. The idea did not catch on, although I like it. Sort of like the Israeli system. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-repeal-17th-amendment/299385.md?page=2)