# time to split up the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024 "2013-02-01T13:09:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/21 "2013-02-01T16:09:16Z")
Nations can split without war. Look at Czechoslovakia. It wouldn’t work well in this case because one side is irrational and highly aggressive; even if we split peacefully, we’d be in a new Cold War with our neighbor pretty soon complete with nukes pointed at each other. And probably with a greater chance that the theocrats would at some point just scream “Praise Jesus, the End Times have come!” and launch them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/22 "2013-02-01T16:23:19Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Maybe we should retry prohibition, too. I’m sure the reasoning behind it was sound; it was just badly executed, and in a different century. > > “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Right back atcha. Merely saying “it didn’t work before” isn’t learning from history. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/23 "2013-02-01T16:28:44Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > All worthy observations. > > On another board, I was just convinced how terrible it would be for the economy to get rid of all the guns, seeing as how so many people would be out of work. Doctors, nurses, lawyers, police, rehab, newscasters, headline writers, gun and ammo magazine publishers, etc. etc. In fact, disposing of guns might well cause an economic downturn. If we redirected the money we spend on useless military every year into infrastructure and education we would have something to show for it, but, there is no equivalent argument for taking guns out of society. some 50000 job openings per year are created by gun deaths and injuries, as well. > > I suppose it would be best to let the boys play with their toys, so long as they don’t point them at me. An excellent, cogent, and well reasoned rejoinder to the problems that have been raised with regard to your plan to split the country. I’m convinced, let’s get started, we can probably paper it up before quitting time. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/24 "2013-02-01T16:43:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nations can split without war. Look at Czechoslovakia. It wouldn’t work well in this case because one side is irrational and highly aggressive; even if we split peacefully, we’d be in a new Cold War with our neighbor pretty soon complete with nukes pointed at each other. And probably with a greater chance that the theocrats would at some point just scream “Praise Jesus, the End Times have come!” and launch them. Scary! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/25 "2013-02-01T16:51:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Scary! “Slovakia” does sound rather ominous, true. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/26 "2013-02-01T17:05:53Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Shucks, we welcome immigration, we have open borders. Emigration, too, to get rid of the bible thumpers, wife beaters and gun crazies. This is important. A split in the US without guaranteeing cross border travel and immigration is not going to go over well. The US thrives on workers being able to travel wherever they want in the country in search of work or whatever they want. Families are spread across thousands of miles and depend on the ability to make quick visits without having to get a New York Tourist Visa (you got a problem with that?) and a New Jersey Transit Visa (it costs a lot of money to even apply and half the applicants are rejected due to poor background checks) or hope the border authorities don’t turn them away for looking too shabby to be a tourist. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/27 "2013-02-01T17:11:45Z")
As this seems to be more “cosmic” than “less than cosmic,” I’m moving the thread to Great Debates. Please be cognizant from here on out of the forum rules for GD. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/28 "2013-02-01T17:16:57Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Just wait till you have to deal with illegal immigration from the CSA (Central States of America). In perhaps the ultimate irony, the liberal, technocratic majority in the ESA will recognize the wisdom of building an impassable border fence immediately after the mutually agreed secession. 😃 > [@crucible](#): > > Splitting before was not by mutual consent, but, perhaps Lincoln could have avoided 600000 dead Americans by letting them go and then suing them for the value of the Federal facilities lost. Where would he have sued them? The Imaginary Court of Appeals for International Wrongs in the 1800s? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/29 "2013-02-01T17:27:28Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > This is important. A split in the US without guaranteeing cross border travel and immigration is not going to go over well. The US thrives on workers being able to travel wherever they want in the country in search of work or whatever they want. Not to mention the no-grease fuckover that this plan would give to the housing market. Left-leaning (or at least non-rabidly religious), often relocated, well-off professionals in red state cities would experience a massive loss of assets as they panic sell their houses in previously expensive urban neighborhoods and upscale suburbs. Then a glut of highly educated/skilled refugees enter the blue states seeking far more good jobs than are available, driving down wages for white collar work. The loss of tax revenue in red states would further disadvantage the most vulnerable, completing the grand screwover cycle. Please build a whole lot more low-income housing in presumably Blue Oregon, because I may as well go back to the food service industry somewhere pretty and tree-covered, and lots of folks are coming with me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/30 "2013-02-01T17:28:33Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > We could get them to take a healthy portion of the nation debt There are uncountable reasons this is a terrible idea that will never happen, but this one jumps out. You would never be able to do this. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/31 "2013-02-01T17:38:32Z")
It’s already been split 50 ways. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/32 "2013-02-01T17:38:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There are uncountable reasons this is a terrible idea that will never happen, but this one jumps out. You would never be able to do this. Exactly. When in the history of the world has a spouse ever left a note on the kitchen table saying, “I can’t be with you any longer. I’m leaving you, and I’m taking the bills with me.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/33 "2013-02-01T17:48:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There are uncountable reasons this is a terrible idea that will never happen, but this one jumps out. You would never be able to do this. Once again someone posts something that I was going to say but didn’t, only in a pithier fashion. Their relucatance to take on the debt would also be ironic considering that, with the exception of Texas, they are the cause of the debt. Considering this, it might be worthwhile to take on more than our\* share of the debt because we would be able to make it up later through our better industry, whereas the breakoff states would continue to lag behind. But this of course doesn’t stop the fact that there’d be gun-waving demonstrations talking about how they’re not gonna take on any debt that the government used to prop up the high tax liberal states (despite the fact that they’re factually wrong about that.) \*I’m near the I-4 corridor in Florida. North of it might just join the split. Not sure about the rest. Miami, at least, would never go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/34 "2013-02-01T17:51:20Z")
May as well make up a short list of states that would be welcome to join Canada. I guess we could take Maine, Vermont, Washington, and possibly Wisconsin and Minnesota off your hands. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/35 "2013-02-01T18:07:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > May as well make up a short list of states that would be welcome to join Canada. I guess we could take Maine, Vermont, Washington, and possibly Wisconsin and Minnesota off your hands. You’ll get Wisconsin when you pry it out of my very cold, dead hands. Take Minnesota instead. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/36 "2013-02-01T18:10:09Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Splitting before was not by mutual consent, but, perhaps Lincoln could have avoided 600000 dead Americans by letting them go and then suing them for the value of the Federal facilities lost. The South might have made it clear that the Feds could use all their forts and other military installations in perpetuity and might have urged negotiations on an amicable split. Instead, they attacked Federal installations and made it into an Us and Them situation. > > Realistically, the split was not for the same reasons as today’s split would be. A negotiated split might be preferable to the war that is coming between right wing nut cases and the rest of us if they don’t wise up soon. Now you sound like a Confederate apologist. Did you even look at the map that I linked–that showed urban spots of blue in red states–& definite reddish areas even in California? The demographic shift will eventually turn Texas blue, unless the Republicans change their ways. But that demographic shift is away from a white majority; your plan would ensure _your_ country would remain whiter… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/37 "2013-02-01T18:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m in favor of giving Texas and the Louisiana Purchase area to the theocratic, gun loving folks who make me crazy with their crap. We could get them to take a healthy portion of the nation debt, coordinate overall defense, cooperate on trade issues, in short, everything on which we agree, but… So, you want to get rid of Texas, the US mid-west (including the bread basket/corn belt region), Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota, etc…basically splitting your new fantasy nation in two (or are you proposing 3 new nations?) and retaining the rust belt plus the booming economy in California? And you want to do this because you are miffed about gun ownership (what are you going to do with the western states, since they would want to retain their guns as well?? Or are Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah also going to the new theocracy state too?) and think that by splitting the country you will have a better chance of getting it? 😛 The problems with this (starting from the fact that that the majority of citizens in all of those states don’t WANT to split with the union) are just too numerous to go through, but the biggest one I can see is that your new fantasy nation wouldn’t be economically viable. They would have to import food from the states you kicked out, and would have major issues with other resources (you just gave away most of them). > [@](#): > > The coasts and the lakes could get some decent gun control laws, forget arguing forever about women’s rights, minority rights, etc. with a clearly secular, more European society model…they can be happy in their theocratic based country where they can starve their poor and elderly, let the rich take over 99% of the wealth with a reestablished feudal system, give their women over to submissive relationships only, etc. etc. You are dreaming. 😛 But, let’s say that indeed all the rich folks go to this new nation of Redaria and take their wealth with them…what are you going to do for capital in that case? The good workers and peasants will just pony it up? Especially when you are saddled with the rust belt AND California, it should be interesting how you think this will be viable. You gave away basically the majority of our natural resources and some of the most productive farm land, plus places where we have a lot of industry that is actually productive, and you kept all of the places where manufacturing was once strong but today is pretty weak…all because you are miffed about gun ownership (and you don’t realize that in a lot of the states you are retaining you are going to have a lot of folks who will still fight you on your fantasy of more stringent gun control). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/38 "2013-02-01T18:15:37Z")
Nitpick: our most productive farmland is in California. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/39 "2013-02-01T18:15:54Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > perhaps Lincoln could have avoided 600000 dead Americans by letting them go and then suing them for the value of the Federal facilities lost. This is preposterous. If the CSA had been a separate country, how would he have sued them and why would they have agreed to pay or accept US soldiers? > [@](#): > > A negotiated split might be preferable to the war that is coming between right wing nut cases and the rest of us if they don’t wise up soon. There is no war coming. And the posters who point out that your proposal is almost totally ignorant of U.S. demographics are right. The basic divide between Democrats and Republicans is not on a state level. It is largely urban vs. rural. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/40 "2013-02-01T18:17:12Z")
Other than Oklahoma (which had every Congressional district vote for Romney), all other states have a combination of red and blue counties. Central Valley California, plus San Diego and Orange County might want to go in one direction while San Francisco and LA go in another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024.md?page=3)