# time to split up the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024 "2013-02-01T13:09:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/61 "2013-02-01T19:07:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does Canada have similar conservative and liberal portions? They really liked _The Band_. Levon Helm, _The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down_ and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/62 "2013-02-01T19:14:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite certain that [Arizona, Utah, Idaho, and Alaska](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LouisianaPurchase.png) would want to leave as well. Probably Nevada and the eastern portions of Washington, Oregon, and California too. And I’m certain that most of the old South wouldn’t want to stay in your liberal nirvana either. The newly-formed state of Bluecoastia would end up with some rather peculiar geography: most of the Northeast, a large region around the Great Lakes, and a big strip running along the west coast. Trying to connect those three regions together by road or rail would be all but impossible without having to travel through Redistan. (Kind of the way you have to drive through Canada if you want to get from the lower 48 to Alaska by car today.) Hmmm… where would Florida wind up? Technically it’s Southern, but it doesn’t have a truly Southern culture. A high percentage of the population consists of migrants from the northeast, and another high percentage hail from Cuba. Seems to me Florida could wind up going either way (although I suspect it would end up joining Redistan). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/63 "2013-02-01T19:18:42Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > The discussion here is reminding me of that scene in _Ghandi_ where, after Pakistan is formed, displaced people from both sides of the conflict are passing by each other going in opposite directions on opposite sides of a ditch… > > Is our country heading to such polarization that we will not be able to live side-by-side with each other? Probably not; the far right is disproportionately old. Time will take care of most of them. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/64 "2013-02-01T19:19:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does Canada have similar conservative and liberal portions? Maybe we could mix them into this too. New England and Quebec seem made for each other. Maybe there are conservative portions of Canada that can join with North Dakota and the redneck, conservative utopia. That would be Alberta and Saskatchewan. And maybe the Yukon Territories and British Columbia as well. But certainly the city of Vancouver would want to join with the rest of the West Coast, so maybe British Columbia would need to be partitioned into a coastal blue province and an inland red one, which would each join with their respective US partners. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/65 "2013-02-01T19:27:12Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Is our country heading to such polarization that we will not be able to live side-by-side with each other? The bleating about impending civil conflict from both the right and left is more or less indistinguishable and IMHO more often than not sounds like equally disingenous, self-serving rhetoric. One side threatens to run off and join the circus and the other side pretends to take it seriously. The first guy can’t actually do acrobatics, and the second guy would like to watch him break his neck trying. It’s a political spin on the zombie/nuclear/whatever apocalypse scenario. We appear to be wired, culturally or just as humans, to speculate on what would happen if the shit really hit the fan. And we typically imagine that personally, we’ll do OK. Cause, y’know, I’ve got my shit way more together than those other dudes who can’t even see what total jerks they are. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/66 "2013-02-01T19:32:38Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > They really liked _The Band_. > > Levon Helm, _The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down_ and stuff. The Band was 4/5th Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/67 "2013-02-01T19:41:39Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > The bleating about impending civil conflict from both the right and left is more or less indistinguishable and IMHO more often than not sounds like equally disingenous, self-serving rhetoric. One side threatens to run off and join the circus and the other side pretends to take it seriously. The first guy can’t actually do acrobatics, and the second guy would like to watch him break his neck trying. > > It’s a political spin on the zombie/nuclear/whatever apocalypse scenario. We appear to be wired, culturally or just as humans, to speculate on what would happen if the shit really hit the fan. And we typically imagine that personally, we’ll do OK. Cause, y’know, I’ve got my shit way more together than those other dudes who can’t even see what total jerks they are. I disagree that this is standard operating procedure. There has been a fundamental shift in the degree to which extreme values are represented by the right. This is demonstrable in a number of ways if that would be remotely productive to the discussion. Additionally, an orientation to problem solving that is not only dismissive of empiricism, but is outright antagonistic towards science itself, represents another fundamental change on the political right. ETA: While one might counter that there has always been an element of this among the populace, the real problem is that this element now has the primary control of the political reins on the right. They continue to drive out conservatives in favor of extremists in a way that harms everyone. It is beyond a simple matter of disagreement with our neighbors about the best way to solve particular problems. In the US, we now vehemently disagree about how, or perhaps even whether, to measure problems and evaluate possible solutions. This is a severe impediment to positive change. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/68 "2013-02-01T19:45:10Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Do you think we could keep the same Constitution for both countries and then let the evolution of liberal thought and conservative thought shape the court decisions in each country, creating the kind of country each of us want? Or have 50 states that do that. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/69 "2013-02-01T20:11:10Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > There has been a fundamental shift in the degree to which extreme values are represented by the right. This is demonstrable in a number of ways if that would be remotely productive to the discussion. Please demonstrate. I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’m not convinced that there is a willingness to kill and die behind it. The only people from whom I see is an increase in extremist statements are political entertainers, who are presumably being deliberately provocative for ratings, and certain blowhard republican-voting guys, who sound to me like they are really just trying to get a rise out of the “libtards” in the room. Real life trolling, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/70 "2013-02-01T20:14:43Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > That would be Alberta and Saskatchewan. And maybe the Yukon Territories and British Columbia as well. But certainly the city of Vancouver would want to join with the rest of the West Coast, so maybe British Columbia would need to be partitioned into a coastal blue province and an inland red one, which would each join with their respective US partners. My Canadian geography sucks. Would this be enough to get us a contiguous Redistan which reaches up to Alaska? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/71 "2013-02-01T20:24:38Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > The discussion here is reminding me of that scene in _Ghandi_ where, after Pakistan is formed, displaced people from both sides of the conflict are passing by each other going in opposite directions on opposite sides of a ditch… > > Is our country heading to such polarization that we will not be able to live side-by-side with each other? We already don’t live side by side with each other. Communities are becoming increasing segregated by politics. [The Big Sort](http://www.economist.com/node/11581447?story_id=11581447) > [@](#): > > County-level data understate the degree of ideological segregation, reckons Bill Bishop, the author of a gripping new book called “The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded America is Tearing Us Apart”. Counties can be big. Cook County, Illinois, (which includes Chicago), has over 5m inhabitants. Beaverhead County, Montana, covers 5,600 square miles (14,400 square kilometres). The neighbourhoods people care about are much smaller… > For example, someone who works in Washington, DC, but wants to live in a suburb can commute either from Maryland or northern Virginia. Both states have equally leafy streets and good schools. But Virginia has plenty of conservative neighbourhoods with megachurches and Bushites you’ve heard of living on your block. In the posh suburbs of Maryland, by contrast, Republicans are as rare as unkempt lawns and yard signs proclaim that war is not the answer but Barack Obama might be. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/72 "2013-02-01T20:28:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > My Canadian geography sucks. Would this be enough to get us a contiguous Redistan which reaches up to Alaska? Yes, it would, actually. (Oh, and I forgot, Redistan would also probably pick up the Northwest Territories as well. Redistan might end up geographically quite a bit larger than Bluecoastia, but not as heavily populated.) ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/73 "2013-02-01T21:17:17Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think we can split it up into several countries: > > The People’s Republic of Pacifikstan > New New England > The Confederate States of Rednecland > North and South Flyoveria > The City-state of New York City > Texas I love whimsical threads like this one and feel a little constrained by its transfer to GD. Assuming Pacifikstan is comprised of the three coastal states (and Alaska and Hawaii, I guess), which of the three bordering states would be likely to join? Those all (Idaho, Nevada, Arizona) seem like they would be more comfortable in a conservative union. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/74 "2013-02-01T21:33:39Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I love whimsical threads like this one and feel a little constrained by its transfer to GD. > > Assuming Pacifikstan is comprised of the three coastal states (and Alaska and Hawaii, I guess), which of the three bordering states would be likely to join? Those all (Idaho, Nevada, Arizona) seem like they would be more comfortable in a conservative union. It _is_ a fun thread when you try to consider all the details which would be involved in splitting the US into two or more independent nations. I don’t think Alaska would want to join Pacifikstan, as it’s a fairly conservative state. And I wonder if Hawaii wouldn’t take the opportunity to become an independent nation of its own (as many native Hawaiians weren’t all that enthusiastic about joining the US in the first place). So if we ended up wit the independent Island Kingdom of New Hawaii and Alaska stayed red, then Pacifikstan would have to be composed of just California, Oregon, and Washington. Which would make a perfectly respectable nation, just a long, skinny one. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/75 "2013-02-01T21:35:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Band was 4/5th Canadian. Yes, but they got Levon Helm and played a lot of Southern stuff. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/76 "2013-02-01T21:58:54Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > It _is_ a fun thread when you try to consider all the details which would be involved in splitting the US into two or more independent nations. > > I don’t think Alaska would want to join Pacifikstan, as it’s a fairly conservative state. And I wonder if Hawaii wouldn’t take the opportunity to become an independent nation of its own (as many native Hawaiians weren’t all that enthusiastic about joining the US in the first place). So if we ended up wit the independent Island Kingdom of New Hawaii and Alaska stayed red, then Pacifikstan would have to be composed of just California, Oregon, and Washington. Which would make a perfectly respectable nation, just a long, skinny one. Here’s the problem - California is very politically diverse. There are areas that do not even think in the same hemisphere as, say, the Bay Area or LA. Modoc County in NE CA is closer to Idaho politically and geographically than SF. I would think CA, as well as OR and WA would end up looking more like a patchwork, like they were talking about for the West Bank in Israel a few years ago. Not really workable. I think the west coast cities are generally blue, but the hinterlands are bright red. The split may be more coastal/inland. How would we handle that in this hypothetical situation? Would Pacifikstan be an even thinner ribbon, like Chile, leaving a hulking, landlocked red neighbor to the east? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/77 "2013-02-01T22:05:28Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Here’s the problem - California is very politically diverse. There are areas that do not even think in the same hemisphere as, say, the Bay Area or LA. Modoc County in NE CA is closer to Idaho politically and geographically than SF. Split it up by county. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/78 "2013-02-01T22:23:36Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > I think the west coast cities are generally blue, but the hinterlands are bright red. The split may be more coastal/inland. How would we handle that in this hypothetical situation? Would Pacifikstan be an even thinner ribbon, like Chile, leaving a hulking, landlocked red neighbor to the east? Lots of portions of the US have that problem (which is one reason why I don’t think the US will be splitting up any time soon). I think you’re Chili-like Pacifikstan would be what we ended up with, along with such oddities as the Free City of Austin (Austin’s thoroughly blue, while most of Texas currently isn’t), and big states like New York State and Illinois dividing into blue and red regions which would belong to different countries. I also wonder what would happen to “purple” places like Iowa, which don’t fit neatly into either category. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/79 "2013-02-01T22:51:56Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > I love whimsical threads like this one and feel a little constrained by its transfer to GD. > > Assuming Pacifikstan is comprised of the three coastal states (and Alaska and Hawaii, I guess), which of the three bordering states would be likely to join? Those all (Idaho, Nevada, Arizona) seem like they would be more comfortable in a conservative union. [Paraphrasing Idiocracy] Nevada and Arizona are in Texas, dumbass! [Paraphrasing Idiocracy] Idaho would be part of Flyoveria. Basically every state between California and NYC that isn’t part of the South or Texas. (Maybe an East West Flyoveria split might be better) Alaska would probably be it’s own country. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024/80 "2013-02-01T23:10:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Alaska would probably be it’s own country. I think it always has been. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-split-up-the-usa/649024.md?page=5)