# Time to tell the music industry to **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 31, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755 "2007-12-31T01:51:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/21 "2007-12-31T04:13:52Z")
So, I guess that wink was for you, then. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/22 "2007-12-31T04:18:13Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] Buh-bye, guys - you’re the next typewriter manufacturers. [/QUOTE] I work in the Sony Music building. They just had another round of layoffs before Christmas. Every time I pass the music guys in the hall I want to yell, “Why are you still here?! Run, run for your lives!” ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/23 "2007-12-31T04:21:30Z")
Let’s not get our panties too twisted about this quite yet. [engadget](http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/30/riaa-not-suing-over-cd-ripping-still-kinda-being-jerks-about-it/) says while RIAA is referring to ripping as “unauthorized copying,” the suit against Jeffery Howell is for good old fashioned illegal downloading. [And even that isn’t strictly true, it is making copyrighted music available in a shared file to be UPloaded] That said, is there a more stupid & clueless group of the wealthy and powerful than the music industry? [Other than the Bush Administration.] Why the RIAA isn’t working with Apple or even Microsoft for a real solution to this is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/24 "2007-12-31T04:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] \This is just insane. What’s next? Not being able to lend a friend the actual DVD? I strongly support copyright, being myself a producer of intellectual property, but this is taking it too far. [/QUOTE] Yep, I can see them doing that next. Not only that, but they will say that not only can you not have “movie parties” and have people who don’t live in your household over to watch movies with you, but that you must purchase a special “viewer’s license” per member of your household for each member, including pets. Og forbid if you have a problem with roaches, or mice! :rolleyes: Honestly, with the trend they are showing lately I won’t be surprised if that is what they try next. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/25 "2007-12-31T04:31:15Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] Yep, I can see them doing that next. Not only that, but they will say that not only can you not have “movie parties” and have people who don’t live in your household over to watch movies with you, but that you must purchase a special “viewer’s license” per member of your household for each member, including pets. Og forbid if you have a problem with roaches, or mice! :rolleyes: Honestly, with the trend they are showing lately I won’t be surprised if that is what they try next. [/QUOTE] This reminds me of a story that appeared on a satirical website claiming that the MPAA was requiring a license for TVs over a certain width, claiming that large-screen TVs were harming the movie industry by recreating the feel of a theater at home. Many websites reprinted this piece of satire as truth- including The AV Club, a subsidiary of a little website called the Onion, known for its…um, satircial articles. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/26 "2007-12-31T05:15:00Z")
Oh, it’s pretty bad already. The music mills managed to get all sorts of interesting restrictions put into law. Just look at this copyright page here: [Chapter 1 - Circular 92 | U.S. Copyright Office](http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#110) > [@](#): > > (B) communication by an establishment of a transmission or retransmission embodying a performance or display of a nondramatic musical work intended to be received by the general public, originated by a radio or television broadcast station licensed as such by the Federal Communications Commission, or, if an audiovisual transmission, by a cable system or satellite carrier, if — > > (i) in the case of an establishment other than a food service or drinking establishment, either the establishment in which the communication occurs has less than 2,000 gross square feet of space (excluding space used for customer parking and for no other purpose), or the establishment in which the communication occurs has 2,000 or more gross square feet of space (excluding space used for customer parking and for no other purpose) and — > > (I) if the performance is by audio means only, the performance is communicated by means of a total of not more than 6 loudspeakers, of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room or adjoining outdoor space; or > > (II) if the performance or display is by audiovisual means, any visual portion of the performance or display is communicated by means of a total of not more than 4 audiovisual devices, of which not more than 1 audiovisual device is located in any 1 room, and no such audiovisual device has a diagonal screen size greater than 55 inches, and any audio portion of the performance or display is communicated by means of a total of not more than 6 loudspeakers, of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room or adjoining outdoor space; > > (ii) in the case of a food service or drinking establishment, either the establishment in which the communication occurs has less than 3,750 gross square feet of space (excluding space used for customer parking and for no other purpose), or the establishment in which the communication occurs has 3,750 gross square feet of space or more (excluding space used for customer parking and for no other purpose) and — > > (I) if the performance is by audio means only, the performance is communicated by means of a total of not more than 6 loudspeakers, of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room or adjoining outdoor space; or > > (II) if the performance or display is by audiovisual means, any visual portion of the performance or display is communicated by means of a total of not more than 4 audiovisual devices, of which not more than 1 audiovisual device is located in any 1 room, and no such audiovisual device has a diagonal screen size greater than 55 inches, and any audio portion of the performance or display is communicated by means of a total of not more than 6 loudspeakers, of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room or adjoining outdoor space; > > (iii) no direct charge is made to see or hear the transmission or retransmission; > > (iv) the transmission or retransmission is not further transmitted beyond the establishment where it is received; and > > (v) the transmission or retransmission is licensed by the copyright owner of the work so publicly performed or displayed; …and so on. Note they’re even nitpicking to the point of specifying how big of a TV you can use in certain commercial conditions before it becomes a potential copyright violation - 55-inches. You think they aren’t itching to get their paid-for California representatives to something that nitpicky into law for home use? ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/27 "2007-12-31T05:45:57Z")
Here’s what I don’t understand if they’re making this “unauthorized copies” argument for cd’s ripped to computers. What of ipods? Even if I purchase the mp3 from itunes, I purchase it to download on my computer. When I load it onto my ipod, I have effectively copied the file as it now exists on both my computer and my ipod. However, I am unable to purchase a file specifically for my ipod as it has to be loaded from my computer. How can they legally get around that? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/28 "2007-12-31T05:51:43Z")
**AS I POSTED IN ANOTHER PIT THREAD ABOUT THIS SAME TOPIC…** RIAA is being belligerently stupid. Assuming you only rip songs to your computer so only you can listen to them and never share them on-line, how exactly do they expect enforce this? Are they going to start randomly grabbing iPod listeners off the street and giving them the third-degree to find out if songs on their MP3 player were (gasp!) originally from a CD? Are they going to start paying people to snitch on friends and family who have ripped their CD collection to their computer? Their whole argument deserves to get laughed out of court. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/29 "2007-12-31T07:50:44Z")
The enforcement is very simple, if completely haphazard and random: The RIAA and MPAA want to create an effective “presumption of guilt” when it comes to copyright law. That is, they want to make it so unreasonable to avoid breaking the law that they know anyone who annoys them is guilty of _something_ and can be harassed into compliance based on their violation of otherwise unenforceable laws. The backlash to this is people ceasing to take copyright seriously. This is happening all over the world and will not be stopped by passing more laws (duh) or even cracking down on a few notable people. There will always be nations just out of reach of the laws (Sweden and China are the big ones now, maybe some African nations will be the next hotspots) but fully in reach of the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/30 "2007-12-31T08:17:39Z")
Well, barring search warrants, that would be basically unenforceable. Except for the shotgun-style lawsuits, this is pretty comical. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/31 "2007-12-31T08:54:35Z")
Hate to bring a halt to all this snowballing conjecture, but the link does say: > [@](#): > > The industry’s own Web site says that making a personal copy of a CD that you bought legitimately may not be a legal right, but it “won’t usually raise concerns,” as long as you don’t give away the music or lend it to anyone. So, no - nobody’s throwing anyone in jail for copying their own cd’s to their own ipod for their own use, and nobody’s _planning_ to either. As for “giving it to your friends”, I’d like to hear a coherent argument as to why this _isn’t_ stealing. When you buy a recording, are you just paying for the plastic that the cd is made out of, and the ink that the cover is printed with, or are you also paying for the _intellectual property_ that is the music contained on the cd? Surely you all believe it’s the latter, don’t you? You don’t believe that artists should give all their music away for free and not make a cent, do you? With me so far? Good. So let’s say I buy a cd for $15, and the artist’s share of profit for that cd is 15 cents (don’t know what they would make, but just as an example). Now, if 1000 other people buy that cd, the artist makes $150. But if I file share that cd with 1000 people, the artist only makes 15 cents. Now, you can rant all day about the horrible greedy record companies, and I’m not necessarily going to disagree, but who’s _really_ getting screwed when you file-share? The artist, that’s who. ---
**Author:** ![Tehanu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee7513/32.png) [@Tehanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tehanu)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/32 "2007-12-31T09:21:47Z")
[QUOTE=interface2x] Here’s what I don’t understand if they’re making this “unauthorized copies” argument for cd’s ripped to computers. What of ipods? Even if I purchase the mp3 from itunes, I purchase it to download on my computer. When I load it onto my ipod, I have effectively copied the file as it now exists on both my computer and my ipod. However, I am unable to purchase a file specifically for my ipod as it has to be loaded from my computer. How can they legally get around that? [/QUOTE] IIRC, for songs purchased from iTunes there is a clause in the licensing agreement that allows for multiple copies of the songs to be made, including burning onto CD. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/33 "2007-12-31T10:06:40Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Hate to bring a halt to all this snowballing conjecture, but the link does say: [/quote] And it also says: > [@](#): > > At the Thomas trial in Minnesota, Sony BMG’s chief of litigation, Jennifer Pariser, testified that “when an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song.” Copying a song you bought is "a nice way of saying ‘steals just one copy,’ " she said. …which is really fucking insulting and completely wrong, but we’re pretty much used to that by now, so it doesn’t matter, right? What’s up with the people who watch these goddamn assholes chip away at our rights to do anything at all with the music we buy, and react to it by simply smiling and asking for more lube? I do like the picture of the crestfallen girl in the article who was fined $9250 apiece for songs by the likes of Richard Marx and fucking Journey. I think I’d be less upset by the fines than I would by having my picture next to those song titles in _The Washington Post_. > [@](#): > > As for “giving it to your friends”, I’d like to hear a coherent argument as to why this _isn’t_ stealing. When you buy a recording, are you just paying for the plastic that the cd is made out of, and the ink that the cover is printed with, or are you also paying for the _intellectual property_ that is the music contained on the cd? Surely you all believe it’s the latter, don’t you? You don’t believe that artists should give all their music away for free and not make a cent, do you? Heeeere we go again. :rolleyes: Why don’t you do us all a favor and shut the fuck up instead of starting that debate for the ten billionth fucking time, okay? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/34 "2007-12-31T10:40:53Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] My husband, an avid CD buyer has hundreds of CDs, DVDs and games (all legally purchased), but since he travels so much he burnt them onto a portable hard disk (he would need an extra suit case to travel with all his DVDs, CDs and games. We keep all the CDs at home and don’t even use them (I am not so big on music, or games and can only watch a movie so many times). So, is this now illegal? [/QUOTE] The legality depends on how he was burning said hard disk. Was it outside of his private property, and was there ever any danger of starting a wildfire? How do you get those things to ignite, anyway? 😃 Fuck the RIAA. Its not like I am in the demographic of people who agree with them anyway, but they can’t win any sympathy by suing private citizens, especially when they rely on Scientology-like scare tactics to force people to settle. Hopefully they will be extinct and providing us oil soon. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/35 "2007-12-31T11:46:34Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] And if you follow the link under the link you posted, you get to this: Pretty sloppy of him, especially considering he’s a lawyer. [/QUOTE] But nonetheless, that’s what the RIAA [is claiming](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/28/AR2007122800693.html), and more: > [@](#): > > In legal documents in its federal case against Jeffrey Howell, a Scottsdale, Ariz., man who kept a collection of about 2,000 music recordings on his personal computer, the industry maintains that it is illegal for someone who has legally purchased a CD to transfer that music into his computer. > > The industry’s lawyer in the case, Ira Schwartz, argues in a brief filed earlier this month that the MP3 files Howell made on his computer from legally bought CDs are “unauthorized copies” of copyrighted recordings. And it looks like [Hillary Clinton](http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/30/riaa-litigating-away-its-relevance/) is guilty of this practice: > [@](#): > > [Back in 2006](http://www.mp3.com/news/stories/4632.html), entertainment industry darling Hillary Clinton told the press she had the Beatles on her iPod. Since the Beatles had not yet licensed their music to iTunes or any other MP3 site, the only way she could have gotten them onto her iPod would have been by ripping a CD. Think the RIAA has the stones to take on Hillary? I think not. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/36 "2007-12-31T12:38:17Z")
Why is the RIAA not suing Apple for promoting the ripping of CDs onto iTunes and iPod? Apple (and others) are making these tools widely available and suggesting people use them for illegal activities. If I was Apple, I might be inclined to nip this shit in the bud, and countersue the RIAA, or at least provide this fellow with top notch defense attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/37 "2007-12-31T12:47:34Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Think the RIAA has the stones to take on Hillary? I think not. 😃 [/QUOTE] Can we insist that they follow their logic to it’s conclusion? If they try to sue a well-known political figure, that might get Congress to wake up to the way these assholes are stomping all over “fair use” and copyright in general. As **Derleth** pointed out, the practical upshot of this sort of nonsense is that it’s creating a popular view of copyright that’s actually harming and weakening copyright in the eyes of the public. Or, to put it another way - it’s fulfilling a prediction made back around 1840, during debate in Parliament on the subject of copyright: > [@Thomas Macaulay](#): > > I will only say this, that if the measure before us should pass, and should produce one-tenth part of the evil which it is calculated to produce, and which I fully expect it to produce, there will soon be a remedy, though of a very objectionable kind. Just as the absurd acts which prohibited the sale of game were virtually repealed by the poacher, just as many absurd revenue acts have been virtually repealed by the smuggler, so will this law be virtually repealed by piratical booksellers. At present the holder of copyright has the public feeling on his side. Those who invade copyright are regarded as knaves who take the bread out of the mouths of deserving men. Everybody is well pleased to see them restrained by the law, and compelled to refund their ill-gotten gains. No tradesman of good repute will have anything to do with such disgraceful transactions. Pass this law: and that feeling is at an end. Men very different from the present race of piratical booksellers will soon infringe this intolerable monopoly. Great masses of capital will be constantly employed in the violation of the law. Every art will be employed to evade legal pursuit; and the whole nation will be in the plot. (Text of the full speech available [here](http://baens-universe.com/articles/McCauley_copyright) , and is still highly illustrative of the issue of copyright, IMNSHO.) ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/38 "2007-12-31T13:21:02Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] So, let me ask you this. If someone puts together a mix CD for their significant other as a birthday or anniversary present, is that stealing? [/QUOTE] Um, yes? You can’t copy and SHARE music. That (IMHO) makes sense. If your SO wants a mix CD, he or she should legally purchase the music. The music belongs to you, not your SO. What the thread is about is people ripping their OWN legally purchased music and getting in trouble for using it themselves, not for sharing it. Ripping music then sharing it is an entirely different issue. What I would love to know is how he got “caught”. I don’t know anyone that does \*\*not \*\* rip their CDs to a digital format to enjoy on their MP3 player. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/39 "2007-12-31T13:44:23Z")
[QUOTE=BoBettie] You can’t copy and SHARE music. That (IMHO) makes sense. If your SO wants a mix CD, he or she should legally purchase the music. [/quote] I see they don’t have the concept of “gifts” on your home planet. 😛 People have been repeatedly telling the music industry to fuck off in recent years, and deservedly so. Hence declining sales and the problems several major companies have been having. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755/40 "2007-12-31T14:29:11Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] \People have been repeatedly telling the music industry to fuck off in recent years, and deservedly so. Hence declining sales and the problems several major companies have been having. [/QUOTE] That’s part of what pisses me off so much in discussions like this; I have heard (I’ll have to research it later, since I’m off to work now) that the music industry has NOT had declining sales since the introduction of mp3s, iPods, iTunes, etc. It’s a control and “We’ve always done it this way, so we’ll always do it this way” issue ONLY. If I were an artist, I’d be staying away from the entrenched music industry in droves. It’s a new world for the music industry and artists, and you can embrace or it get left behind, and all the draconian, ludicrous laws in the world won’t change that reality. (Embracing the new way of doing business, like, for example, [this guy, Geoff Byrd.](http://www.garageband.com/artist/geoffbyrd) He’s apparently a big deal on the net; we saw him live opening for Hall and Oates, and bought his cd at the show. He is a major talent, and as far as I know, has nothing to do with the [del]dinosours[/del] established music industry.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-tell-the-music-industry-to/431755.md?page=3)