# Time to Update the Geneva Convention? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372 "2004-06-03T01:13:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/1 "2004-06-03T01:13:33Z")
Alan Dershowitz makes the case that it’s time to reconsider the specifics of the Geneva Convention. He says it’s out of date and favors the bad guys over the democracies. I think he’s got some good logic there. What strikes me as most interesting about this is that a lawyer such as Dershowitz is even questioning a law that protects civil liberties. I’m used to guys like him acting as if these laws are above human interpretation and revision. They were given to us by God and that’s that! I like his willingness to challenge the orthodoxy. We could use more of that. [Dershowitz on the Geneva Convention](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.geneva28may28,0,3485167.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines) ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/2 "2004-06-03T01:19:34Z")
> [@Plan B](#): > > Alan Dershowitz makes the case that it’s time to reconsider the specifics of the Geneva Convention. Yes, holding another conference to redefine some terms is in order. Many Dopers agreed on this in older threads. > [@](#): > > He says it’s out of date and favors the bad guys over the democracies. It is out of date, but I don’t see how it favors the “bad guys,” since it doesn’t even technically define terrorists/insurgents under any of its codes. Please clarify? ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/3 "2004-06-03T01:30:56Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > It is out of date, but I don’t see how it favors the “bad guys,” since it doesn’t even technically define terrorists/insurgents under any of its codes. Please clarify? I went back to the article to cut and paste the relevant part for you, but realized that would be the whole article. Sorry I can’t add much more to this than what is in the article. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/4 "2004-06-03T01:33:17Z")
Very little of what he talks about involving his ‘terrorists’ doesn’t apply to most guerilla warfare of the past half-century, yet suddenly now he feels the need to argue this case? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/5 "2004-06-03T01:46:49Z")
I especially love the line > [@](#): > > Human rights are thus being used to promote human wrongs. Awe, what a cute turn of phrase. Did he get that off a bumper sticker? > [@](#): > > First, democracies must be legally empowered to attack terrorists who hide among civilians Read: We should be able to blow up big chunks of people we suspect have terrorists somewhere around them. > [@](#): > > Second, a new category of prisoner should be recognized for captured terrorists and those who support them. They are not “prisoners of war,” neither are they “ordinary criminals.” They are suspected terrorists who operate outside the laws of war, and a new status should be designated for them - a status that affords them certain humanitarian rights, but does not treat them as traditional combatants. Read: I want to rape a Saudi with a flashlight, too! > [@](#): > > Third, the law must come to realize that the traditional sharp line between combatants and civilians has been replaced by a continuum of civilian-ness. Well, I agree to a certain extent. There does need to be a redefinition of “combatant” - however this doesn’t mean that they should have more or less rights than someone wearing a uniform. > [@](#): > > Fourth, the treaties against all forms of torture must… I stopped reading after this (the last, I glanced) point. You lower the laws against torture, and I’ll personally rape you with your own flashlight. Used to be a day when we could say, “we’re better than them”… now we can only say, “I wish we were better than them” ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/6 "2004-06-03T01:51:31Z")
“…the traditional sharp line between combatants and civilians has been replaced by a continuum of civilian-ness.” Exactly the argument used by Palestinian terrorists to justify killing Israeli civilians. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/7 "2004-06-03T01:52:45Z")
Dershowitz has become a bit of a mad Zionist in his dotage. This article is more Palestinian bashing & Israeli apologetics, _viz_ > [@](#): > > They employ suicide bombers who cannot be deterred by the threat of death or imprisonment because they are brainwashed to believe that their reward awaits them in another world. > … > Whenever a civilian is accidentally killed or an ambulance is held up at a checkpoint, the terrorist leaders, … > > Some human rights groups, international organizations and churches have joined this chorus of condemnation, equating the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians by terrorists with the unintended consequences of trying to combat terrorism It’s sad to see D exploiting his prestige as a lawyer for these political ends. Particularly, as he has no talent or expertise in matters political. As far as the laws go, the more interesting point reflects on the policy of American exceptionalism generally. It’s this, the idea that nations & persons should be held to certain standards of conduct, _but not the US_. Of course nobody outside the US is buying this, which is where the trouble starts. So, reflect, any amendment will diminish the protection offered to US service people, exactly as it permits greater latitude to the US, Israel and other nations. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/8 "2004-06-03T01:54:59Z")
I’m curious where the author of this article places the Iraqi insurgents. They aren’t terrorists. They aren’t members of an official, uniformed military. They are rebels fighting an occupying army. Under these proposed regulations, these insurgents against an occupying army would fall through the cracks and lose their rights as combatants, protection from torture, etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/9 "2004-06-03T01:56:01Z")
Isn’t it strange how his ‘continuum of civilian-ness’ doesn’t apply to Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/10 "2004-06-03T02:02:28Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > I’m curious where the author of this article places the Iraqi insurgents. > > They aren’t terrorists. > > They aren’t members of an official, uniformed military. > > They are rebels fighting an occupying army. > > Under these proposed regulations, these insurgents against an occupying army would fall through the cracks and lose their rights as combatants, protection from torture, etc etc. Rebels fighting an occupying army are currently specifically protected under the GCs. They are granted the same protections as an official, uniformed military. That’s said I don’t think D has the Iraqi insurgents in mind particularly. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/11 "2004-06-03T02:05:42Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Rebels fighting an occupying army are currently specifically protected under the GCs. They are granted the same protections as an official, uniformed military… Maybe that’s why we’re constantly told it’s _not_ an occupation? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/12 "2004-06-03T02:09:18Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Rebels fighting an occupying army are currently specifically protected under the GCs. They are granted the same protections as an official, uniformed military. > > That’s said I don’t think D has the Iraqi insurgents in mind particularly. Hm, I assumed that was the target of his ire, with the referrals to torture specifically as a major point. He is talking mostly about Israel-Palestine? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/13 "2004-06-03T02:16:04Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > “…the traditional sharp line between combatants and civilians has been replaced by a continuum of civilian-ness.” > > Exactly the argument used by Palestinian terrorists to justify killing Israeli civilians. :rolleyes: And by the Israeli military to justify shooting at groups of Palestinians that include noncombatants. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/14 "2004-06-03T02:23:52Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > And by the Israeli military to justify shooting at groups of Palestinians that include noncombatants. And the same logic that wants to add America into that joyful mix ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/15 "2004-06-03T02:35:56Z")
**Gorilla’**. “Occupation” isn’t an important word really, so in answer to your question, no. From memory, the protection is given to irregulars who take up arms to resist an invader, without having had the time to benefit from formal military induction and training. Not precisely, but that sort of thing. **Zagadka**. From his recent history and the extracts I posted previously, I’d say yes, Israel-Palestine is his target. Nowhere else is a good fit. As a lawyer, he knows there are systematic violations of internationally mandated civil rights and standards of conduct there. Rather than defend the indefensible, he’s pleading for less condemnation. It’s not really an appraisal of law at all. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/16 "2004-06-03T02:43:10Z")
Being a lawyer, maybe he could have set an example and drafted up some propositions, instead of some vague rants about the difficulties of warfare. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/17 "2004-06-03T06:21:45Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > **Gorilla’**. “Occupation” isn’t an important word really, so in answer to your question, no. > > From memory, the protection is given to irregulars who take up arms to resist an invader, without having had the time to benefit from formal military induction and training. Not precisely, but that sort of thing. Here’s what would define them as PoWs under the Geneva Convention were they caught: "Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) That of carrying arms openly; (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. [/quote] In many cases they’d not fulfil any of these criteria. The same loophole which has resulted in Guantanamo Bay’s semi-permanent population. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/18 "2004-06-03T06:47:00Z")
> [@Plan B](#): > > Alan Dershowitz makes the case that it’s time to reconsider the specifics of the Geneva Convention. He says it’s out of date and favors the bad guys over the democracies. So what? Part of what makes us the country that we are is that we follow the rules. Does it hurt us to treat our prisoners with respect and dignity in spite of what our enemies may be doing to our POWs? It’s an ideal, and one of the ideals that makes this a great country. Of course, now I’m going to have to endure the usual taunts about the prison thing and the Guantanamo thing, but I’ll take it because that is one of the things I truly believe in and I hope that all this other stuff is only temporary abberations because that is not what America is all about. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/19 "2004-06-03T07:16:53Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Of course, now I’m going to have to endure the usual taunts about the prison thing and the Guantanamo thing, but I’ll take it because that is one of the things I truly believe in and I hope that all this other stuff is only temporary abberations because that is not what America is all about. From your postings generally I believe you are sincere when you say the \*essential goodness \* of America is indeed something you “truly believe in”. Unfortunately this is, for me at least, the strangest thing about Americans view of the actions of their nation, they seem unable to measure America against the same yardstick as the rest of the world - as expressed in an early post here. Repeated American military aggression, the use of state terrorism as a matter of consistent policy and support for (including training and “in country advisers”) repressive regimes around the world seems to pass the people by. Explicitly denying enemy combatants their rights of the Geneva Conventions and now the use of systematic torture are not “temporary abberations” but further escalation on the same continuum. Now many of the same objections apply to other nations, but at least they are applied. Too many Americans dismiss them the “temporary abberations” when applied to their country. I am afraid your “hope” is misplaced and your “belief” rests on shaky ground. If it is alike to a religious faith then I suspect attempting to debate with you will prove unrewarding. If you retain an open mind I am sure you will have takers… ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372/20 "2004-06-03T07:27:16Z")
Nice post Airmans USAF… but notquitekarpov is right. Following rules hasn’t been the US norm lately nor is it temporary. After all when “Good” clashes with “Evil” they can do no wrong… or can they ? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-to-update-the-geneva-convention/248372.md?page=2)