# Times Omsbudsman: Possibly "Palin, Rush, Beck Responsible For Shooting!" Was Teeniest Bit Premature **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336 "2011-01-20T16:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/21 "2011-01-20T19:34:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What does that mean? Certainly the majority of participants in those threads took that position. And you yourself said: > > In response, I observed the onus isn’t on anyone to refute that allegation, but for those making it to substantiate it. > > Don’t you agree? The burden of proof does not require irrefutable proof. It can simply shift the burden to the other side to refute. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/22 "2011-01-20T19:39:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In response, I observed the onus isn’t on anyone to refute that allegation, but for those making it to substantiate it. > > Don’t you agree? nm: I misread an earlier post. tbc… ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/23 "2011-01-20T19:41:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Like Aunt Polly, you seem perfectly content to let folks get blamed for what they didn’t do under the theory that they did other bad stuff, and thus “didn’t get a lick amiss.” I’d like a cite that I blamed them, please. I’ve stated _repeatedly_ that I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/24 "2011-01-20T19:48:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The burden of proof does not require irrefutable proof. It can simply shift the burden to the other side to refute. Agreed. But it has to be SOMETHING beyond bare assertion. What is the evidence that shifts the burden to the other side? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/25 "2011-01-20T19:51:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Like Aunt Polly, you seem perfectly content to let folks get blamed for what they didn’t do under the theory that they did other bad stuff, and thus “didn’t get a lick amiss.” > [@Lightnin](#): > > I’d like a cite that I blamed them, please. I’ve stated _repeatedly_ that I don’t. I didn’t say you blamed them. What I said is clearly quoted above: _you seem perfectly content to let folks get blamed for what they didn’t do._ Would you like a cite for your being content to let them get blamed? > [@Lightnin'](#): > > Those poor, persecuted Conservatives. > > I find it amusing that the same party which has painted our President as ineligible for his position due to his supposed birth in another country, the party which objects to a mosque being built within sight of Ground Zero because some other Muslims crashed planes there, the party which says that providing healthcare to every citizen is tantamount to socialism, has now had its feelings hurt because someone dared to draw a connection between violent rhetoric and violent action. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/26 "2011-01-20T19:52:06Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Well, thanks for identifying my motives for me. You are incorrect, of course. The “best predictors of this happening again” aren’t the focus of **Bricker** ’s OP; he’s looking for an apology from people who gored his ox. [analogy]The fact that the ox may not have knocked over a particular stall on its rampage through the marketplace doesn’t mean it’s improper to stop the rampage.[/analogy] > > There was no naked assertion made by “the majority”. Lots of oxen around here. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/27 "2011-01-20T20:18:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I didn’t say you blamed them. What I said is clearly quoted above: _you seem perfectly content to let folks get blamed for what they didn’t do._ > > Would you like a cite for your being content to let them get blamed? You’re reading a hell of a lot more into that statement than I actually put in there. You seem to do that a lot, it seems. One might think you’re purposefully ignoring what I’ve written, and are instead assigning me a motive and position which you’re then demanding that I defend. There’s a word for that, isn’t there? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/28 "2011-01-20T20:43:37Z")
**Bricker** , I had misread your ‘burden of proof’ comment to be aimed at the assertion that the political climate was directly to blame for Loughner’s action. On a 2nd read, I see that you’re looking for ‘proof’ of my allegation that the political climate created by right wing rhetoric makes violence more likely. To which I can respond by citing the acts of violence perpetrated or attempted within the present general political period by people citing right wing pundits as direct sources feeding their fear or hatred of their intended targets (Scott Roeder, assassin of Dr. Tiller; the Tennesse Unitarian church shooter; the guy who wanted to shoot up the ACLU and Tides Foundation in SF; etc.). To which you can counter by citing acts of violence perpetrated or attempted by people citing left wing sources etc. And we could trade examples and dispute their validity as left or right wing, and never actually prove or refute any particular theory of influence. Or, I could respond by citing other sources agreeing with my allegation, which you can call appeals to authority. Or I could provide a syllogistic argument that divisive rhetoric generates political thought promoting action against an “other side” and that specific political thought leads to specific political action, ergo divisive _and violent_ rhetoric could produce specific violence against the perceived “other side”, but then we’d be back to ‘burden of proof’. But that’s only if we argue as if we were trying to justify punitive action against the alleged rhetoricians. We’re not. We’re trying to establish whether certain political rhetoric produces increased \*\*risk \*\*of violence in our society. That’s not a binary “At Risk/Not at Risk” assessment, and it’s not static or subject to absolute quantitative assignment. However, _qualitative_ risk analysis can be accomplished without ever establishing a causative chain. In the project world, this is mostly done using historical data and the judgement of subject matter experts to make educated estimates of probability and impact. If we use the same techniques, we can certainly show a historical connection between violent rhetoric and acts of violence, and we can certainly find current analyses from subject matter experts in the fields of psychological medicine and social theory. Shall we do that, **Bricker**? Frankly, I’m not prepared to devote more time to these discussions than I already average, but if you want to pursue such a risk assessment, I’ll contribute to the best of my time & ability. I would guess in all honesty that if we both independently produced a probability and impact matrix that included ‘politically motivated violence’, ‘random criminal violence’ and ‘deranged gunmen’, we’d both assign low prob/low impact to the last category and high prob/medium or high impact to the second, but I might justify a higher probability to the first than you would. But I also guess you wouldn’t assign a zero probability, and that you’d raise the numerical level in a climate with more instances of motivating factors. So it would come down to an assessment of whether rhetoric is a motivating factor. And I would have to ask after all of that discussion the same thing I ask of you now: Why _wouldn’t_ extreme political rhetoric be a motivating factor for political violence? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/29 "2011-01-20T20:46:06Z")
Here is the rope with which the right wing can be hung on this particular debate: “Second Amendment remedies.” That exactly the remedy Laughner used. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/30 "2011-01-20T20:54:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except that the rhetoric of the Right already has lead to violence and the threats of violence, repeatedly. And the rhetoric of Islam has already lead to violence, repeatedly. But the same people who so quickly knew who to blame for Tucson did the exact opposite for Fort Hood. They fell over backwards to avoid any hints that the crazy guy had ever been influenced by extremist rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/31 "2011-01-20T20:56:17Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > You’re reading a hell of a lot more into that statement than I actually put in there. You seem to do that a lot, it seems. One might think you’re purposefully ignoring what I’ve written, and are instead assigning me a motive and position which you’re then demanding that I defend. > > There’s a word for that, isn’t there? No, I’d say you were very clear; your sarcasm dripped off the page. You don’t really feel sympathy for conservatives. Are you saying that you intended to be serious by saying, “Poor conservatives?” ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/32 "2011-01-20T21:03:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I’d say you were very clear; your sarcasm dripped off the page. You don’t really feel sympathy for conservatives. > > Are you saying that you intended to be serious by saying, “Poor conservatives?” For complaining and playing the victim (which seems to be all they’re good for, lately), not for being blamed. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/33 "2011-01-20T21:15:10Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > And the rhetoric of Islam has already lead to violence, repeatedly. > > But the same people who so quickly knew who to blame for Tucson did the exact opposite for Fort Hood. > They fell over backwards to avoid any hints that the crazy guy had ever been influenced by extremist rhetoric. Who are these “same people”? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/34 "2011-01-20T21:46:27Z")
> [@just\_some\_guy5](#): > > So do you consider the Arizona incident to be another such case? I initially thought the violence was politically-connected, but I’m willing to admit it sounds like a pure mental-health issue at this point. > > I’m also honestly curious to know who you’d include in this category of republicans. I presume you don’t mean ~40% of the American public, and I also presume you wouldn’t include folks like Olivia Snowe or Scott Brown. Yes, he means every republican voter. Read some of his other posts some time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/35 "2011-01-20T22:47:35Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Here is the rope with which the right wing can be hung on this particular debate: > > “Second Amendment remedies.” That exactly the remedy Laughner used. Interesting. Can you tell me which remedy Yigal Amir used? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/36 "2011-01-20T22:47:41Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > **Bricker** , I had misread your ‘burden of proof’ comment to be aimed at the assertion that the political climate was directly to blame for Loughner’s action. On a 2nd read, I see that you’re looking for ‘proof’ of my allegation that the political climate created by right wing rhetoric makes violence more likely. > > To which I can respond by citing the acts of violence perpetrated or attempted within the present general political period by people citing right wing pundits as direct sources feeding their fear or hatred of their intended targets (Scott Roeder, assassin of Dr. Tiller; the Tennesse Unitarian church shooter; the guy who wanted to shoot up the ACLU and Tides Foundation in SF; etc.). > > To which you can counter by citing acts of violence perpetrated or attempted by people citing left wing sources etc. > > And we could trade examples and dispute their validity as left or right wing, and never actually prove or refute any particular theory of influence. Conservatives have liberals beat in the threat department. > [@](#): > > Since Mr Obama took office, the rate of threats against the president has increased 400 per cent from the 3,000 a year or so under President George W. Bush, according to Ronald Kessler, author of In the President’s Secret Service. > > Some threats to Mr Obama, whose Secret Service codename is Renegade, have been publicised, including an alleged plot by white supremacists in Tennessee late last year to rob a gun store, shoot 88 black people, decapitate another 14 and then assassinate the first black president in American history. > > SOURCE: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5967942/Barack-Obama-faces-30-death-threats-a-day-stretching-US-Secret-Service.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5967942/Barack-Obama-faces-30-death-threats-a-day-stretching-US-Secret-Service.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/37 "2011-01-20T22:57:04Z")
Anyway, this intense desire to find meaning in a tragedy, even a misplaced meaning, is nothing new. More than one person dredged up this quote this week: > [@](#): > > He didn’t even have the satisfaction of being killed for civil rights . . . . It’s — it had to be some silly little Communist. That was Jackie Kennedy, talking to her mother some time after Dallas. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/38 "2011-01-20T23:47:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Cite please? [Cite](http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/4045/not_cause,_but_effect:_jared_loughner_and_tea_party_rhetoric/). The themes of his crazy (besides the usual schizo government mind control stuff): Gold, literacy in English, gun rights. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/39 "2011-01-20T23:49:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The burden of proof does not require irrefutable proof. It can simply shift the burden to the other side to refute. “_You_ prove to us that you are _not_ Wrangel’s agent.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/40 "2011-01-20T23:59:19Z")
> [@just\_some\_guy5](#): > > I’m also honestly curious to know who you’d include in this category of republicans. I presume you don’t mean ~40% of the American public, and I also presume you wouldn’t include folks like Olivia Snowe or Scott Brown. At this point all of them; if they don’t realize the kind of violent and irrational political party they are supporting then they are being willfully blind. The relatively rational, reasonable, principled Republicans have _left_. > [@chappachula](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > Except that the rhetoric of the Right already has lead to violence and the threats of violence, repeatedly. And the rhetoric of Islam has already lead to violence, repeatedly. [/QUOTE] And so has the rhetoric of Christianity. Both are religions and therefore irrational and destructive by nature. Did you really expect the argument of “you can’t criticize the Right without criticizing religion” to work? On _me_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336.md?page=3)