# Times Omsbudsman: Possibly "Palin, Rush, Beck Responsible For Shooting!" Was Teeniest Bit Premature **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336 "2011-01-20T16:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/61 "2011-01-21T14:37:40Z")
Why stop at the '60s when we could include anti-FDR incitements from the 1920s and '30s? …or we could avoid the inevitable infinite regress and try to discuss the _current_ political climate. EDIT: yup, **xenophon41** , it’s liberal hypocrisy once again. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/62 "2011-01-21T14:38:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@SenorBeef](#): > > > > If one of the crazies killed another representative tomorrow, and this time very much inspired by the rhetoric on the right - by your logic, while guilt-free today, suddenly they’d be guilty tomorrow. > > This is a good point. > > I am curious if **Bricker** will accept that if this is all an unfair attack on the right will it be a fair accusation if someone does attack due to their right-wing convictions? I don’t know about **Bricker** , but it seems like common sense to me. Of course, it will still be common sense if someone attacks due to their left-wing convictions, it wil be equally fair to attack the left. If you meant “rhetoric” instead of “convictions”, then I still agree, but with the same sort of caveat. We can’t really show that this person committed a rape because of pornography, and due to the First Amendment we can’t really do anything to reduce the amount of pornography produced, but we still need to condemn the pornographers and their nasty product. IYSWIM. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/63 "2011-01-21T14:42:52Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Even at the pinnacle of their fleeting popularity among the disaffected youth counterculture, neither the Weathermen nor Bobby Seale were ever close to being part of a political or ideological establishment. They were much less influential in their heyday than Palin is even two years after her failed VP run. [I don’t know that I would necessarily dismiss the terrorists of the 60s as totally without influence today.](http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2169) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/64 "2011-01-21T14:48:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [I don’t know that I would necessarily dismiss the terrorists of the 60s as totally without influence today.](http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2169) Dear God, has anyone informed the FBI that this terrorist is on the loose? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/65 "2011-01-21T14:50:31Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > (and not a rightwing source _describing_ it as reverent attention). And friend **Shodan** helpfully produces the apolitical and totally nonpartisan David Horowitz to show us the continuing critical importance of 1960’s radicalism. Well played use of instant irony sir. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/66 "2011-01-21T15:09:30Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Interesting. Can you tell me which remedy Yigal Amir used? Um, right wing Israeli assassin … I’m not sure where you’re going with this, Mr. Moto. If he were an American, it would be a Second Amendment, does Israel even have a second amendment equivalent? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/67 "2011-01-21T15:58:30Z")
I’m not surprised that leftists’ immediate reaction was to blame their ideological enemy. Politics is tribal, and folks will grab any club that lets them beat those fools on the other side - Bayesian inference and intellectual rigor be damned. What _is_ surprising is the extent to which the media transparently let left-leaning journalists act based on their kneejerk biases. This whole episode is rather revealing on both the allegiances of the media elite and the decaying hold of the tradition of journalistic objectivity. They’ve probably tipped their hand more than they’d have liked. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/68 "2011-01-21T16:03:52Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I’m not surprised that leftists’ immediate reaction was to blame their ideological enemy. Again, this went both ways. And your post seems to reveal the same bias you’re pointing out in others. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/69 "2011-01-21T16:26:40Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I’m not surprised that leftists’ immediate reaction was to blame their ideological enemy. Politics is tribal, and folks will grab any club that lets them beat those fools on the other side - Bayesian inference and intellectual rigor be damned. What _is_ surprising is the extent to which the media transparently let left-leaning journalists act based on their kneejerk biases. This whole episode is rather revealing on both the allegiances of the media elite and the decaying hold of the tradition of journalistic objectivity. They’ve probably tipped their hand more than they’d have liked. Really, so you don’t think there’s any logical connection of the absolute demonification of the left by the mainstream right - EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNIST MUSLIM SLEEPER AGENTS - and thinly veiled calls to violence (“second amendment solutions”, etc) - and the assassination of a democratic politician? This is just a “oh, blame the other side no matter what” thing to you? Just totally random, no logic behind it whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/70 "2011-01-21T16:32:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t know about **Bricker** , but it seems like common sense to me. > > Of course, it will still be common sense if someone attacks due to their left-wing convictions, it wil be equally fair to attack the left. > > If you meant “rhetoric” instead of “convictions”, then I still agree, but with the same sort of caveat. Sure, if you can show the mainstream rhetoric on the left is creating a poisonous atmosphere. I doubt Bobby Seale was commanding $75,000 speaking fees as Palin does (not to mention her TV appearances and her own reality TV show). I do not think Bobby Seale had a nationally syndicated radio show like Rush Limbaugh does. I do not think Bobby Seale had a national, daily show on a major news network as Glenn Beck does. I do not think Bobby Seale had numerous best selling books like Ann Coulter does (Coulter being known for such gems as, “My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building.”). And, FWIW, Seale did go to jail for his actions. So sure, if you can find the equivalent to the above on the left I’m right there with ya. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/71 "2011-01-21T16:58:11Z")
I’m pretty sure I qualify as a “lefty”. Haven’t even thought about Bobby Seale in maybe thirty years. Until **Bricker** told me how much I admire him. Rather a surprise, really. So, tell me, **Bricker** , which of us has so much as mentioned his name in the last seveal years? And while you’re about it, point out for us who has spoken of the Weather Underground in glowing terms? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/72 "2011-01-21T17:00:30Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Really, so you don’t think there’s any logical connection of the absolute demonification of the left by the mainstream right - EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNIST MUSLIM SLEEPER AGENTS - and thinly veiled calls to violence (“second amendment solutions”, etc) - and the assassination of a democratic politician? This is just a “oh, blame the other side no matter what” thing to you? Just totally random, no logic behind it whatsoever? Yes. There are extremists on both sides, and people are biased to demonize the other side’s crazies and downplay their own. The left demonizes the right plenty (remember anti-war crazies in the Bush era?) and the right overreacts too. But it’s hard to see that when you’re always surrounded by folks on your own side and live in that sort of partisan echo chamber. In such an environment you’re always bombarded with cherrypicked anecdotes of the mean old other side, and the misdeeds of your own never seem to garner much interest. The wisest thing is to recognize your tribal biases, attempt to compensate for them, and if you enjoy reading partisan political websites, sample those on the other side (without a reflective arrogance at those deluded fools) to gain a vaguely balanced perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/73 "2011-01-21T17:12:12Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Yes. There are extremists on both sides, and people are biased to demonize the other side’s crazies and downplay their own. The left demonizes the right plenty (remember anti-war crazies in the Bush era?) and the right overreacts too. But it’s hard to see that when you’re always surrounded by folks on your own side and live in that sort of partisan echo chamber. In such an environment you’re always bombarded with cherrypicked anecdotes of the mean old other side, and the misdeeds of your own never seem to garner much interest. Except, ya know, when the left-wing rhetoric complained about the war, the war _actually existed_. When the right-wing rhetoric discusses the imminent destruction of everything we hold dear due to socialist fascist policies, the links to reality are considerably more tenuous. Keep pushing for full equivalence though - you shall overcome someday! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/74 "2011-01-21T17:17:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Except, ya know, when the left-wing rhetoric complained about the war, the war _actually existed_. When the right-wing rhetoric discusses the imminent destruction of everything we hold dear due to socialist fascist policies, the links to reality are considerably more tenuous. > > Keep pushing for full equivalence though - you shall overcome someday! Not to mention the left wing crazies are not front and center. Right wing crazies are in congress (ala Michelle Bachmann or others in congress who called to see Obama’s birth certificate). Add in my list from my last post. And that is just for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/75 "2011-01-21T17:18:06Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Yes. There are extremists on both sides, and people are biased to demonize the other side’s crazies and downplay their own. The left demonizes the right plenty (remember anti-war crazies in the Bush era?) and the right overreacts too. But it’s hard to see that when you’re always surrounded by folks on your own side and live in that sort of partisan echo chamber. In such an environment you’re always bombarded with cherrypicked anecdotes of the mean old other side, and the misdeeds of your own never seem to garner much interest. > > The wisest thing is to recognize your tribal biases, attempt to compensate for them, and if you enjoy reading partisan political websites, sample those on the other side (without a reflective arrogance at those deluded fools) to gain a vaguely balanced perspective. Can any vitriol whatsoever on your side of the political spectrum be excused as long as you can find an example you think equals it on the other side of the spectrum? Isn’t there a point where you say, “We can’t go that route no matter _what_ the other side does!”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/76 "2011-01-21T17:22:33Z")
> [@](#): > > …sample those on the other side (without a reflective arrogance at those deluded fools) to gain a vaguely balanced perspective… OK, fair enough. I listen to Rachel Maddow frequently. A swans neck, a mind like a steel trap, a girlish laugh when she harpoons tighty-righty horseshit, what’s not to love? So, for balance, I should pay respectful attention to…who? Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Erik Erickon, Andrew Breitbart, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingraham, Mike Savage, Matt Drudge, Hugh Hewitt, Michael Medved or any of a list of second stringer local radio talk hosts, each of whom is struggling to reach their paycheck level by spewing more violent venom than the next guy? Wanna bet if I were willing to take the time, I could find you fifty? I trust you see the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/77 "2011-01-21T17:44:27Z")
You forgot Keith Olbermann and Michael Moore and maybe Bill Maher and…I dunno, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert? and…help a guy out here… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/78 "2011-01-21T17:49:56Z")
No. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/79 "2011-01-21T18:21:06Z")
Thought this illustrates the issue well: > [@](#): > > Conspiracy theory-fueled extremism has long been a reaction to progressive government in the United States. Half a century ago, historian Richard Hofstadter wrote that right-wing thought had come to be dominated by the belief that Communist agents had infiltrated all levels of American government and society. The right, he explained, had identified a “sustained conspiracy, running over more than a generation, and reaching its climax in Roosevelt’s New Deal, to undermine free capitalism, to bring the economy under the direction of the federal government, and to pave the way for socialism or communism.” > > In a 2009 report, the Southern Poverty Law Center found that the anti-government militia movement – which had risen to prominence during the Clinton administration and faded away during the Bush years – has returned. According to the SPLC, the anti-government resurgence has been buttressed by paranoid rhetoric from public officials like Republican Congresswoman Michele Bachmann and media figures like Fox News’ Glenn Beck. > > Just last month, Gregory Giusti pleaded guilty to repeatedly threatening House Speaker Nancy Pelosi – including threatening to destroy her California home – because he was “upset with her passing the health care law.” His mother told a local news station that he “frequently gets in with a group of people that have really radical ideas,” adding, “I’d say Fox News or all of those that are really radical, and he – that’s where he comes from.” > > After the 2008 election, Fox News personalities filled the airwaves with increasingly violent rhetoric and apocalyptic language. On his Fox News show, Beck talked about “put[ting] poison” in Pelosi’s wine. > > Observers of this most recent act were mystified by one of Byron Williams’ reported targets: the Tides Foundation, a low-profile charitable organization known for funding environmentalists, community groups, and other organizations. > > Beck, it turned out, had attacked Tides 29 times on his Fox News show in the year-and-a-half leading up to the shooting. > > SOURCE: [http://mediamatters.org/research/201010110002](http://mediamatters.org/research/201010110002) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/80 "2011-01-21T18:28:10Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Yes. There are extremists on both sides, and people are biased to demonize the other side’s crazies and downplay their own. The left demonizes the right plenty (remember anti-war crazies in the Bush era?) and the right overreacts too. Yeah, I’ve heard the “if there was an obscure leftist blogger that called Bush bad things for starting an unnecesary war, then it’s the same as a vice presidential candidate endorsing a church that calls our president an illegal muslim” shit over and over. What “anti-war crazies” are you talking about? Just regular anti-war protestors? Kooky conspiracy theorists? If the latter, did they rise to national prominence, being either elected officials or people with a high degree of national exposure? > [@](#): > > But it’s hard to see that when you’re always surrounded by folks on your own side and live in that sort of partisan echo chamber. In such an environment you’re always bombarded with cherrypicked anecdotes of the mean old other side, and the misdeeds of your own never seem to garner much interest. > > The wisest thing is to recognize your tribal biases, attempt to compensate for them, and if you enjoy reading partisan political websites, sample those on the other side (without a reflective arrogance at those deluded fools) to gain a vaguely balanced perspective. The irony of this is that you’re absolutely right, yet completely oblivious to the fact that you’re not adhering to this advice at all. I am essentially unpartisan - I am not a democrat, nor have I ever been. I’ve been in the past much more sympathetic to republican ideals - the shit they say they stand for. I’ve voted for more Republicans than Democrats. So my criticisms of the right do not come from an echo chamber or tribal affiliations. Even when I was anti-democrat and more pro-republican, I did not think the democrats of national prominence were crazy or over the top - I just thought they were wrong. Sometimes liars, I guess - like Michael Moore. But nothing equivelant of the completely over the top baseless hatred that the Republicans now spew. And for that matter, I don’t think the Republicans did the same thing for most of my adult lifetime. They went nuts over the Clinton blowjob thing, and the idea that somehow if you didn’t support Bush you were a traitor was definitely worrisome and a step in the wrong direction, but even factoring that in, the crazy jump in rhetoric that has occured since roughly 2007 is completely unprecedented and way more intense and yet with less substance than anything I’ve ever seen. Quite frankly, anyone who pretends they can’t see the massive radicalization of the last 3 or 4 years I can’t take seriously. It’s not subtle. It’s not a matter of subjectivity. How can anyone honestly be blind to the rise to prominence of the extremists? That takes complete blind partisanship and a complete lack of critical thinking. Maybe they do see it, but they think it’s necesary to act dumb to present a united front. I honestly don’t get it. Anyway, I’m not seeing stuff that isn’t there because of my political biases. Rather, I was sympathetic to republican ideals (again, what they say they stand for) but was driven away by the party (and media) takeover by the crazies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336.md?page=5)