# Times Omsbudsman: Possibly "Palin, Rush, Beck Responsible For Shooting!" Was Teeniest Bit Premature **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336 "2011-01-20T16:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/81 "2011-01-21T18:33:52Z")
We’re here for you, Big Guy! Always ready to help you along in your journey away from the path of political error. And we don’t have twelve steps! Just one. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/82 "2011-01-21T18:41:29Z")
dammit hit post too soon ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/83 "2011-01-21T20:01:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The irony of this is that you’re absolutely right, yet completely oblivious to the fact that you’re not adhering to this advice at all. I am essentially unpartisan - I am not a democrat, nor have I ever been. I’ve been in the past much more sympathetic to republican ideals - the shit they say they stand for. I’ve voted for more Republicans than Democrats. > > So my criticisms of the right do not come from an echo chamber or tribal affiliations. Even when I was anti-democrat and more pro-republican, I did not think the democrats of national prominence were crazy or over the top - I just thought they were wrong. Sometimes liars, I guess - like Michael Moore. But nothing equivelant of the completely over the top baseless hatred that the Republicans now spew. Then you weren’t paying much attention. I’m kinda the opposite of you, I believe in a lot of liberal causes. Gay marriage, universal health care coverage, regulating businesses, environmental concerns, etc. But here’s some of the reason I despise extremist liberals and think the left is as full of shit as Glenn Beck: I remember the [Battle for Seattle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity) and other similar violent acts that are not only endorsed by the left, but actively caused by them. I remember [Code Pink](http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/code_pink_murder.jpg). I remember fights over blanket [bans on the military on college campus’s](http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/3/6/court-says-schools-must-let-military/), because freedom of association only applies to liberals or something. And arguments that allowing military on campus somehow violates the schools right to free association, which is a pretty bizarre piece of doublethought. I remember many prominent liberals demonzing republicans. Michale Moore, Keith Olbermann, Al Frankin, etc. In Frankin’s case, it was decided that calling the opposition a ‘big fat idiot’ was not only worthy of a best selling book, but it deserved to be rewarded by putting him in the Senate. Occasionally celebrities outright called for murder. Craig Killborn posted [Snipers Wanted](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/kilborn-cbs-target-bush-0) under Bush’s face. I remember 8 years of ‘bush is a nazi’ and other similar things, not just by leftist bloggers but by thousands of people rallying. The Bush nazi rallies were just as large as the tea party rallies today, and many were pretty over the top in calling for violence. [This image](http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/wp-content/images2009/BushWhackerElMarco.jpg), for example, is from an Obama rally in 2008. I remember a Nobel Peace Prize winner saying [“Right now, I would love to kill George Bush.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Williams_%28Nobel_laureate%29#Comments_on_killing_George_W._Bush) But you don’t see any of that as a problem. You think the jump in crazy happened in 2007 by the right. It’s all completely unprecedented to you. You believe it’s more intense than anything you have ever seen. Which really makes me wonder, if you aren’t blinded by an echo chamber, then what were you blinded by? Note: I’m not saying the extreme right wing isn’t full of 19 types of crazy or that they’re any better than the lefty wacko’s. Although I’d actually point to the entire Obama = Muslim or birth certificate thing as right wing crazy than Palin’s map. But whatever, there’s plenty of right wing crazy to pick and choose from. However, it’s rather strange that widespread complaints of the level of rhetoric happened to pop up just after a shooting that was, initially, entirely blamed on the right. Then when called on that, the reaction seems to be along the lines of ‘Oh well, sure, this wasn’t because of the right wing, but they’re still worse than the left is…’. Riiiiight. The general tone of this thread would be a lot more convincing if it wasn’t filled with such obvious blinders to the left doing and saying the exact same sort of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/84 "2011-01-21T20:11:37Z")
> [@godix](#): > > I remember the [Battle for Seattle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity) and other similar violent acts that are not only endorsed by the left, but actively caused by them. What does “endorsed by the left” mean, and which of these things were endorsed by the left? A couple of these are actions by one person and others were done by fringe groups. Some don’t qualify as baseless hatred or extremism. Nobody has a monopoly on being rude or stupid, but if we are constantly holding everybody responsible for everything said by anyone who loosely agrees with them, we’re never going to get anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/85 "2011-01-21T22:54:01Z")
[Beck: “Shoot them in the head”](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/21/937651/-Becks-call-to-violence:-Shoot-them-in-the-head): > [@](#): > > You’ve been using them? They believe in communism. They believe and have called for a revolution. You’re going to have to shoot them in the head. But warning, they may shoot you. > > They are dangerous because they believe. Karl Marx is their George Washington. You will never change their mind. And if they feel you have lied to them – they’re revolutionaries. Nancy Pelosi, those are the people you should be worried about. > … > The revolution of 1776 was a picnic compared to what the revolutionaries of today would like to do. It’s not a lot of fun. Usually, millions of people die. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/86 "2011-01-21T22:54:45Z")
**Cite barf:** Some recent examples of rightwing-inspired violence: Jim Adkisson shot up a Tennessee church because he hated its liberal politics [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29104696/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29104696/) Richard Poplawski - Pittsburgh guy who shot three policemen because he was afraid of the coming “Obama gun ban” and didn’t like the way our rights are being trampled. [http://www.wtae.com/news/19094064/detail.html](http://www.wtae.com/news/19094064/detail.html) Scott Roeder shoots Dr. George Tiller - Tiller was a frequent target of the anti-abortion groups. [Bill O’Rielly had featured him as “Tiller the Baby Killer,”](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227658,00.html) Of course, O’Reilly’s in no way responsible. Just another complete coincidence. > **[Abortion Doctor Shot to Death in Kansas Church (Published 2009)](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?_r=1&src=twt&twt=nytimes)** > > A suspect was in custody in the killing of George Tiller, a doctor in Wichita, Kan., who survived a 1993 shooting. Jame Vonn Bruen - birther, pedophile, white supremecist - shoots up the Halocaust Museum, while carrying a notebook saying, “you want my guns - this is how you’ll get them.” The “Obama is going to take your guns away lie” again. > **[United States Holocaust Memorial Museum shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_von_Brunn)** > > At approximately 12:50 p.m. on June 10, 2009, 88-year-old James Wenneker von Brunn entered the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., with a slide-action rifle and fatally shot Museum Special Police Officer Stephen Tyrone Johns. Other special police officers returned fire, wounding von Brunn, who was apprehended. > Von Brunn was charged in federal court on June 11, 2009, with first-degree murder and firearms violations. On July 29, 2009, von Brunn was indicted by a federal... Joseph Stack, after years of anti-governement and anti-tax problems, flies his plane into an IRS building. As I mentioned previously, Stack was a tax-evader nut, but one particular political party has spent 30 years making the demonization of government and taxes one of their central points. > **[2010 Austin suicide attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_stack)** > > The 2010 Austin suicide attack occurred on February 18, 2010, when Andrew Joseph Stack III deliberately crashed his single-engine Piper Dakota plane into Building I of the Echelon office complex in Austin, Texas, United States, killing himself and Internal Revenue Service (IRS) manager Vernon Hunter. Thirteen others were injured, two severely. The four-story office building housed an IRS field office occupying the top three floors, along with a couple of private businesses on the firs In the a... Then there have been three political attacks last year in which the perpetrator was influenced by Glenn Beck’s words. [http://mediamatters.org/research/201101130002](http://mediamatters.org/research/201101130002) The article begins with a transcript of David Brock’s Jan 12 appearance on Chris Matthew’s show. Then it provides followup on Brock’s three cases. Here’s the transcript part: > [@](#): > > ``` > MATTHEWS: I think we used to say, maybe back in the Churchillian age, your voice was your power, your ability to speak up. That's certainly Norman Rockwell's notion, the man, you know -- the standing up at a meeting, at a public meeting and saying, "Here's what I believe." But, now, it's standing up with your arms, standing up with your ammo, your gun sites, your bull's eye. > > Why do you have -- this is a problem I have with the tea party. Why so many guns at these events? Why constantly referring to guns? What is it? Is it a throwback to the revolutionary age? They think they're in an armed revolution? > > BROCK: Right. What does the tea party moniker stand for? Armed rebellion, right? This has been a theme of the Republican candidates and of Sarah Palin all year. > > MATTHEWS: Excuse me. History lesson: The Boston tea party was a nonviolent economic statement against the Stamp Act, I believe. They threw the tea in the water. No guns. > > BROCK: That's right. > > MATTHEWS: They dressed up like Indians. It was a demonstration. It was street theater, OK? No guns. > > BROCK: But this is not street theater, as you know. I mean, Glenn Beck himself has been responsible for three thwarted assassination attempts this year, and Sarah Palin hasn't condemned that. > > MATTHEWS: How is he responsible for them? > > BROCK: Well, you want to know what they are? > > MATTHEWS: You said it. > > BROCK: Yeah, sure. So, he burned Nancy Pelosi in effigy on his set. He tried to poison her with a chalice, OK? Some weeks later, somebody tried to firebomb Nancy Pelosi's house. That guy's mother went on television and said he gets all of his ideas from Fox News. Do you know about Senator Patty Murray and the death threat that she got? > > MATTHEWS: No, go ahead. > > BROCK: OK. It's recorded -- the guy says after the health care vote. He says you have a target on your back and I can accomplish what I want to accomplish with one bullet. Now he's tried, convicted, and in the sentencing phase, his cousin writes in for leniency, and she describes in a very chilling memo -- it's on our website -- that he was slowly drawn into Glenn Beck's world. And she portrays the guy, the attempted assassin, Charlie Wilson, as a victim of Beck. > > And number three, which you probably do know about, this liberal foundation in San Francisco was targeted by a gunman, Byron Williams, in June. The shooter gave jailhouse interviews, and we published them, and he says Glenn Beck is this schoolteacher on television and points to specific episodes of the Glenn Beck show that inspired him do it. [MSNBC, Hardball with Chris Matthews, 1/12/11] > > ``` Media Matters then provides links to articles about these three incidents. Williams, who wanted to attack the Tides Foundation, admitted he learned of their iniquity (my word) from listening to Beck’s show’s last June. Wilson, who threatened democratic senator Patti Murray, claimed that her healthcare vote was evidence of spineless, leftist, socialist, communist, liberals overtaking the country with socialism, from which the real Americans, the independants would have to take it back. William’s cousin claimed that she and he were under the spell of Beck’s powerful personality. The third episode is Gregory Giusti’s threats to burn Pelosi’s home. Giusti left over thirty messages saying that he’s angry about her “pushing the healthcare bill down people’s throats.” Giusti’s mother, Eleanor, claims that he frequently falls in with radical crowds and this time the radical Fox News must be to blame. (Yeah, she said that.) Ok, Giusti’s mom doesn’t sound too authoritative but we certainly heard a bunch about ramming that healthcare bill down people’s throats this last summer. Oh, and here’s a fourth case linking Beck to a criminal: Kenneth B. Kimberly was arrested last summer for making grenades and talking about blowing up bridges and Obama. His own defense attorney, who described him as a “nonthreatening man with passionate political views” claims that Kimberly never threatened anyone, he just repeated the claims of his idol, Glenn Beck. Kimberly pled guilty to federal weapons charges last December. Crooks & Liars link, because it contains sublinks to other writing about Beck & Kimberly [http://crooksandliars.com/taxonomy/term/3952,4379,509](http://crooksandliars.com/taxonomy/term/3952,4379,509) ```auto I'm going to stop here, because I want to respond to Marley separately. It's true that we don't have any examples as blatent as Henry shouting "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" What we do have are multiple examples (for instance, [here's a pdf list of 75](http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/publication/terror_from_the_right_0.pdf), going back fifteen years, from the SPL,) of people acting out on common themes of rightwing rhetoric. Subsequently, rightwing rhetoriticians claim that each incident is an isolated, unforseen, occurance, completely divorced from the rightwing rhetoric that fills our airwaves. Some of them are. Sure. Coincidence? It happens. In the examples above? In *all* of those 75 incidents documented by the SPLC? No. I believe those example are of people acting directly on the rightwing words of our rightwing commentariat. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/87 "2011-01-21T22:56:03Z")
**Secondly, jumping back to the discussion of my first post:** > [@Marley23](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > Cite. The themes of his crazy (besides the usual schizo government mind control stuff): Gold, literacy in English, gun rights. > > That’s good, careful wording: the _themes_ are popular among conservatives. What he says about those themes is not identifiably conservative. It’s incoherent, and it’s not the kind of thing you would hear from Glenn Beck and his ilk. Loughner says some things about English grammar and says people who don’t know what he knows are illiterate, but it’s not like he is arguing for English-only education. When he talks about grammar and literacy and currency, he’s not using them the way you and I use them. He means something else that isn’t clear. And when has Beck ever said the government is using grammar to brainwash people? What’s Hannity say about “conscience dreaming?” There are a couple of kernels of understandable political language in there, and it’s possible he picked those up from conservative media. But here’s what **Mernieth** said: > > [Quote= Merneith] > > he’s a nut who happens to say the sort of right-wing stuff which Beck and Palin say on a regular basis. Your cite doesn’t support this. I’ve watched his YouTube videos. I don’t watch Glenn Beck or anybody like him, but if he or other conservative commentators normally say these kinds of things, I’d like to hear it. [/quote] My argument is that the themes which Loughner references - concerns about the currency and governement - are part of the anti-government stance of the Republican party for the last twenty years and furthermore, these themes are not fringe ideas - they receive frequent airplay on primetime television. The fact that Loughner references these themes in bizarre ways doesn’t affect my argument that he’s he’s a nut, but he’s a rightwing nut. Similarly, the fact that Loughner also says things that are less identifiable doesn’t incline me to believe that the phrases in his posts and youtube videos are just random coincidence. Loughner is nuts, sure, but he’s not just a babbling looney. Also, I think you may be overstating the degree to which those unidentifiable remarks are the ramblings of a diseased mind. For example, regarding Loughner’s references to the government and grammar - [the Southren Poverty Law Center points out](http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/09/who-is-jared-lee-loughner/) that Loughner’s remarks are echoing the work of Patriot Movement theorist David Wayne Miller: > [@](#): > > At another, Loughner makes extraordinarily obscure comments about language and grammar, suggesting that the government engages in “mind control on the people by controlling grammar.” That’s not the kind of idea that’s very common out there, even on the Internet. In fact, I think it’s pretty clear that Loughner is taking ideas from Patriot conspiracy theorist David Wynn Miller of Milwaukee. Miller claims that the government uses grammar to “enslave” Americans and offers up his truly weird “Truth-language” as an antidote. For example, he says that if you add colons and hyphens to your name in a certain way, you are no longer taxable. Miller may be mad as a hatter, but he has a real following on the right. Here’s the wiki on Miller > **[David Wynn Miller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller)** > > David Wynn Miller (1948/49–2018), also styled :David-Wynn: Miller or David-Wynn: Miller, was an American pseudolegal theorist, self-proclaimed judge and leader of a tax protester group within the sovereign citizen movement. Originally a tool and die welder, Miller is best known as the creator of "Quantum Grammar", a version of the English language to be used by people involved in judicial proceedings. He asserted that this constructed language, which is purportedly based on m Miller lived in Oh... And the SPLC’s report on him: > **['Full Colon Miller'](https://www.splcenter.org/resources/reports/full-colon-miller/)** > > A Milwaukee conspiracist says punctuation such as the colon is the key to liberty, but others say David Wynn Miller is full of it. Miller claims that he never heard of Loughner before last week but agreed with Loughner’s posts about the governement and mind control. Perdictably, Miller is shocked -shocked!- at the suggestion that Loughner’s actions are in anyway related to his own writing. (Actually, I guess I wouldn’t be surprised if Miller believed Loughner was acting under mind control, himself.) Anyway, the Patriot Movement has been around for years. It was involved with the various militia movements in the 90’s, for example. Lately, it’s been … absorbed I guess I want to say, although I’m not sure who aborbed whom, by the Tea Party. Here’s a Dec 2010 NYT article about it and it’s relationship to, among others, Beck’s 9/12 group. [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/us/politics/16teaparty.html?scp=1&sq=patriot%20movement&st=cse](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/us/politics/16teaparty.html?scp=1&sq=patriot%20movement&st=cse) That’s a good piece (for the purposes of this post, I mean) overall since it talks about Tea Party members who start by listening to Beck and end up following his advice on gold and ammo or for moving on to even more extreme ideas, like those Loughner held.) That SPLC piece I linked to upthread, “Who is Jared Loughner?”, also pointed to this post at Talk to Action by Chip Berlet > **[| Possible Racist and Anti-Immigrant Tie to Alleged Arizona Assassin](http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/1/9/16240/71598)** Berlet points out that [Loughner’s full quote regarding currency](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHoaZaLbqB4) includes reference to a “second” constitution: > [@](#): > > In conclusion, reading the second United States constitution I can’t trust the current government because of the ratifications: the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar. > No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver! > No! I won’t trust in God. Berlet states that there is a common notion on white supremecist and nationalist sites that since the Civil War, we are operating under a second constitution, since the 13th, 14th & 15th amendments altered the original so drastically and detrimentally. Repealing the 14th amendment is another rightwing Republican idea that’s been bandied about recently, in order to revoke “birthright” citizenship. and [url=http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/boehner-thinks-repealing-fourteenth-a]Boehner have both discussed how the 14th is a bad idea these days. I mention all this about the second constitution only to emphasize out that there’s real ideas behind Loughner’s stuff, even some of the stuff that just sounds looney. Stupid ideas - yes. Crazy ideas - absolutely. And - sometimes - rightwing ideas. I’m going to finish here by quoting [something Andrew Sullivan wrote yesterday](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/ygle-3.html) > [@](#): > > So far, the paranoia and conspiracy theories dominate - but they also dominate the atmosphere of the far right. And when a mentally ill young man complains of the “Broken United States Constitution”, or regards legal tender as illegitimate “I did not pay with gold and silver!”, some of this nuttiness has penetrated. It didn’t come from nowhere. And the critical point from the very beginning was not that Loughner was some kind of trained militia member killing a foe, but a mentally unstable person who, because he is mentally unstable, might be susceptible to extreme rhetoric from authority figures. That’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/88 "2011-01-21T23:01:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What he says about those themes is not identifiably conservative. It’s incoherent, and it’s not the kind of thing you would hear from Glenn Beck and his ilk. > [@](#): > > I don’t watch Glenn Beck or anybody like him, :shrug: > [@](#): > > When he talks about grammar and literacy and currency, he’s not using them the way you and I use them. He means something else that isn’t clear. It’s called “nativism”, friend. A popular theme these days. > [@](#): > > And when has Beck ever said the government is using grammar to brainwash people? What’s Hannity say about “conscience dreaming?” I already mentioned and dismissed that schizo shit in the post you’re responding to. But it’s facile to simply toss up your hands and say “Dude’s crazy”, as if sanity is a binary state, as if he had no external influences. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/89 "2011-01-21T23:32:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Beck: “Shoot them in the head”](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/21/937651/-Becks-call-to-violence:-Shoot-them-in-the-head): To be fair, if one can actually make sense of anything Beck says, he does seem to be advocating that non-progressive non-revolutionary liberal Democrats shoot; Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Cass Sunnstein, Van Jones, Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn, Jeff Jones, Jodi Evans, Andy Stern, Michael Moore, Bill Maher, and Rosie O’Donnell in the head before they shoot us . . . so I guess that’s totally different from the other claim that he’s called for violence, I guess. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/90 "2011-01-22T01:16:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What does “endorsed by the left” mean, and which of these things were endorsed by the left? A couple of these are actions by one person and others were done by fringe groups. Some don’t qualify as baseless hatred or extremism. ‘Endorsed by the left’ means that whenever the G8 meet, there are people on the left rioting and intentionally doing violent acts. Not just talking about it, actually doing it. The Battle for Seattle was an early example, but it has happened many times since then. When lefties riot over and over again, it’s pretty fair to think that lefties endorse violence. Otherwise they wouldn’t keep doing it. > [@](#): > > Nobody has a monopoly on being rude or stupid, but if we are constantly holding everybody responsible for everything said by anyone who loosely agrees with them, we’re never going to get anywhere. So let me make sure I understand this. When thousands of left wing protesters get together and commit acts of violence, not just use violent images in their speech but actually make and throw maltov cocktails, then liberals shouldn’t be held responsible. However, when thousands of right wing protesters peacefully get together and DO NOT riot or commit acts of violence, we get a half dozen threads on how horrible their language is. Which was all prompted by a shooting which had nothing at all to do with the right wing to begin with. Then when the right wing wackos go ‘Hey, wait a minute…’, it just prompts even more threads about how racist the right wingers are since a rather archaic phrase that was originally about Jews was used. None of that strikes you as strange, or an indication that Bricker was right, maybe some dopers reactions were the teensiest, tiniest bit off the mark? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/91 "2011-01-22T01:25:34Z")
Really? “Thousands” of people threw molotov cocktails? That must be why gasoline prices are so high, what with the spike in demand. And of course, no liberal ever condemned those that committed violence. Nope, you’d never find one. Instead, they just all claimed that they were actually extreme right-wingers or that the right should apologize for Kent State before pointing any fingers. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/92 "2011-01-22T01:47:01Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Really? “Thousands” of people threw molotov cocktails? That must be why gasoline prices are so high, what with the spike in demand [The scale of the demonstrations—even the lowest estimates put the crowd at over 40,000. . .](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity) You’re right, I shouldn’t have said thousands of liberals took part in violent protest. I should have said tens of thousands. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/93 "2011-01-22T01:49:02Z")
Ooooh, _snap_! Wilde? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/94 "2011-01-22T02:11:14Z")
> [@godix](#): > > ‘Endorsed by the left’ means that whenever the G8 meet, there are people on the left rioting and intentionally doing violent acts. Not just talking about it, actually doing it. The Battle for Seattle was an early example, but it has happened many times since then. When lefties riot over and over again, it’s pretty fair to think that lefties endorse violence. Otherwise they wouldn’t keep doing it. Left wing violence is grossly exaggerated, while right wing violence is grossly downplayed. And until Democrats in Congress speak out in support of violence and threats of violence, you have no equivalence. > [@godix](#): > > However, when thousands of right wing protesters peacefully get together and DO NOT riot or commit acts of violence, we get a half dozen threads on how horrible their language is. Showing up at rallies with guns, threatening to kill them and their families, shooting at people, bombing them, and murdering them isn’t “peaceful protest”. And that’s the sort of thing the Right has done on a regular basis for many years > [@godix](#): > > [The scale of the demonstrations—even the lowest estimates put the crowd at over 40,000. . .](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity) > > You’re right, I shouldn’t have said thousands of liberals took part in violent protest. I should have said tens of thousands. From the very Wiki article you quote: > [@](#): > > The New York Times printed an erroneous article that stated that protesters at the 1999 WTO convention in Seattle threw Molotov cocktails at police.[18] Two days later, The New York Times printed a correction saying that the protest was mostly peaceful and no protesters were accused of throwing objects at delegates or the police, but the original error persisted in later accounts in the mainstream media.[19] > > The Seattle City Council also dispelled these rumors with its own investigation findings: > > - “The level of panic among police is evident from radio communication and from their inflated crowd estimates, which exceed the numbers shown on news videotapes. ARC investigators found the rumors of “Molotov cocktails” and sale of flammables from a supermarket had no basis in fact. But, rumors were important in contributing to the police sense of being besieged and in considerable danger.” \*[20] > > An article in the magazine The Nation disputed that Molotov cocktails have ever been thrown at an anti-globalization protest within the US.[21] So; you are repeating right wing propaganda as truth, while quoting an article in support of it that actually contradicts you. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/95 "2011-01-22T02:58:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Left wing violence is grossly exaggerated, while right wing violence is grossly downplayed. And until Democrats in Congress speak out in support of violence and threats of violence, you have no equivalence. Hey look, [equivalence](http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/ex-rep-paul-kanjorski-d-pa-fla-gov-rick-scott-they-ought-put-him-). Although I really wonder why you think Beck, Palin, and tea party protests can only be compared to elected Democrat Congressmen to begin with. Is your side really so pathetic that your elected officials are merely equal to an airheaded bimbo on TV ranting about bears? > [@](#): > > Showing up at rallies with guns, threatening to kill them and their families, shooting at people, bombing them, and murdering them isn’t “peaceful protest” And that’s the sort of thing the Right has done on a regular basis for many years Show me the 40,000 large Tea Party rally that shot at people, bombed them, and murdered them. Hell, show me the 40,000 large tea party that caused $20,000,000 in damages. > [@](#): > > From the very Wiki article you quote: > . . . > So; you are repeating right wing propaganda as truth, while quoting an article in support of it that actually contradicts you. True enough. There were no moltov cocktails, that was just reported in the initial confusion. However, I’m not sure burning dumpsters in middle of the street, black clad anarchist committing vandalism, or 20 million dollars of damages done in a single day disproves that the left has endorsed violence. Although I do give props to the protesters that tried to stop the riot, too bad there weren’t enough of truly peaceful lefties to actually do so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/96 "2011-01-22T03:27:51Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Although I really wonder why you think Beck, Palin, and tea party protests can only be compared to elected Democrat Congressmen to begin with. Is your side really so pathetic that your elected officials are merely equal to an airheaded bimbo on TV ranting about bears? No; it’s that the calls for violence come from a regular basis on all levels of the Republican party and have for a long time. As opposed to being a fringe element on the left. > [@godix](#): > > Show me the 40,000 large Tea Party rally that shot at people, bombed them, and murdered them. Hell, show me the 40,000 large tea party that caused $20,000,000 in damages. There was quite a lot of violence over the health care reform bill, including attacks on the office of the lady who was recently shot. nor did I say anything about the Tea Party, I said “the Right”; the Right in general is violent and threatening. Their nationwide terror campaign against abortion, for example. The endemic problem of gay bashing being another. > [@godix](#): > > True enough. There were no moltov cocktails, that was just reported in the initial confusion. However, I’m not sure burning dumpsters in middle of the street, black clad anarchist committing vandalism, or 20 million dollars of damages done in a single day disproves that the left has endorsed violence. Although I do give props to the protesters that tried to stop the riot, too bad there weren’t enough of truly peaceful lefties to actually do so. Except that there weren’t 20 million in “damages”, there was an estimated 20 million in damages and lost sales. Do you have any proof that the vast majority of the loss wasn’t from the latter? Nor is property damage the moral equivalent of threatening people and murdering them, the way the Right is fond of. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/97 "2011-01-22T03:29:18Z")
> [@godix](#): > > …True enough. There were no moltov cocktails, that was just reported in the initial confusion. … Whoa, slow down a bit there, hoss. Let me get see if I got this straight. You got this nugget of shit “reported in the initial confusion.” And, apparently, have not corrected that up until this very moment, when **Der** advised you otherwise? That’s your story, here? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/98 "2011-01-22T03:50:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nor is property damage the moral equivalent of threatening people and murdering them, the way the Right is fond of. Yeah, the way the Right set that bomb off at Sterling Hall and killed Robert Fassnacht, for instance. Those _bastards_. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/99 "2011-01-22T03:50:39Z")
> [@godix](#): > > I remember the [Battle for Seattle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity) and other similar violent acts that are not only endorsed by the left, but actively caused by them. Help me understand, who is the “left” again? Is that the 150million Americans that aren’t the “right”? Both terms are pretty much inaccurate to the point of almost being unusable. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336/100 "2011-01-22T03:55:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; it’s that the calls for violence come from a regular basis on all levels of the Republican party and have for a long time. As opposed to being a fringe element on the left. So that **ELECTED DEMOCRAT US CONGRESSMAN WHO CALLED FOR A REPUBLICAN RUNNING FOR OFFICE TO BE SHOT** that you ignored is a lefty fringe element. Good lord, perhaps the righties calling for revolution are right. That might be better than letting such wackos that even lefties think they’re fringe elements stay in control of the Senate. By the way, capitalization and bolding because, apparently, a bright blue underlined link just wasn’t noticeable enough for you to see. As for the rest, I was clearly talking about a protest involving at least 40,000 people. You’re comparing that to lone individuals actions. I believe the proper phrase here is ‘you have no equivalence’. > [@elucidator](#): > > Whoa, slow down a bit there, hoss. Let me get see if I got this straight. You got this nugget of shit “reported in the initial confusion.” And, apparently, have not corrected that up until this very moment, when **Der** advised you otherwise? > > That’s your story, here? Forgive me, there have been so many protests by liberals that ended with riots and violence that it’s hard to keep the details on any specific one straight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/times-omsbudsman-possibly-palin-rush-beck-responsible-for-shooting-was-teeniest-bit-premature/568336.md?page=6)