# Timothy F. Geithner, Part Duex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113 "2009-01-26T20:08:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/61 "2009-01-28T14:36:51Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > But hey, if you believe your SS contributions are funding your retirement, you’ll believe anything. So you’re dishonest as well as stupid. No one said anything about funding one’s own retirement. Just to remind honest people of what you said: > [@Chief Pedant](#): > > As to the idea that when you pay social security it’s going into **a retirement fund** –even in theory–well; let’s just say… (Emphasis added.) One would think that a pedant, let alone a Chief Pedant, would know what an indefinite article is and what meaning it conveys. Where, in your screed, is there anything about a _particular_ retirement fund? The rebuttal given to you was aimed at what you wrote, not what you’re making up now to cover up what you had written. It is all one large retirement fund, and we all pay into it. If you were honest, you’d stand behind what you said now, even though it was wrong, rather than shift your view into something else. You’re cheating. You’re a liar. You’re dishonest. Obviously, any opinion you have about someone else’s honesty is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/62 "2009-01-28T14:37:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Social Security tax you pay today is being paid out to a retiree or disability recipient tomorrow. You pay into Social Security, but the money you get out _isn’t_ the same money you paid in. Yes, and…? Did someone say otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/63 "2009-01-28T14:38:50Z")
I’m not seeing the point here. If the IRS says you owe them money, you pay them. You hire a tax guy to figure out how much you owe them. On his advice, you pay them that much. If they audit you, you whimper, bend over, and pay them how much they say. Then you say, “Hey, we quits?” And they say, “Yeah, you’re paid up, fine.” So, Mr. Geither had his _tax guy_ tell him how much to pay, and then he got audited, and the IRS told him how much to pay. And then both of them said he was fine. I get the feeling from this interview that he more or less just went, “Fine, how much… okay.” and signed off, instead of double checking things. Amazing, but you’d be surprised how many financial professionals just don’t _want_ to give a shit about their personal finances. It’s much like me not wanting to fix other people’s computers on my day off. Then, when the Obama team went over his taxes, they saw this thing, pointed it to him, and he probably went, “Aw, man. Look at that. Plain as day.” and did the voluntary contribution thing. It’s not that he carefully missed it. It’s that he got two other specialists, his tax guy, who missed it completely, and an _IRS auditor_ specialist to look at it, and _he_ missed it completely too. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/64 "2009-01-28T15:05:58Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Not that Obama really cares. He didn’t bother paying his parking tickets for 17 years. What’s only a couple years for taxes? What? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/65 "2009-01-28T15:07:59Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I’m not seeing the point here. If the IRS says you owe them money, you pay them. You hire a tax guy to figure out how much you owe them. On his advice, you pay them that much. If they audit you, you whimper, bend over, and pay them how much they say. > Then you say, “Hey, we quits?” And they say, “Yeah, you’re paid up, fine.” > > So, Mr. Geither had his _tax guy_ tell him how much to pay, and then he got audited, and the IRS told him how much to pay. And then both of them said he was fine. > > I get the feeling from this interview that he more or less just went, “Fine, how much… okay.” and signed off, instead of double checking things. Amazing, but you’d be surprised how many financial professionals just don’t _want_ to give a shit about their personal finances. It’s much like me not wanting to fix other people’s computers on my day off. > > Then, when the Obama team went over his taxes, they saw this thing, pointed it to him, and he probably went, “Aw, man. Look at that. Plain as day.” and did the voluntary contribution thing. > > It’s not that he carefully missed it. It’s that he got two other specialists, his tax guy, who missed it completely, and an _IRS auditor_ specialist to look at it, and _he_ missed it completely too. A very likely synopsis. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/66 "2009-01-28T15:10:02Z")
The longer this goes on, the more it looks like much ado about nothing. I wasn’t convinced before that Geithner was a tax cheat gaming the system, and at this point in the thread I’m even less convinced. > [@Hilarity N. Suze](#): > > But, on the other hand, there must be some other candidate for the position out there, somewhere, who has not made and then mishandled such a mistake. I’m sure there is, but so what? There’s a serious financial crisis going on and people are suggesting Obama should have given more consideration to this tax issue than to who he felt was the best choice for dealing with that crisis. That’s absurd. Also kind of absurd is that people get upset their politicians are out of touch and don’t relate to the public, and then they blow up every person failing from the politicians into a huge issue, which discourages them from engaging with the public in the first place. ‘There’s an error in his taxes - kill him! Human beings never make errors on their taxes or their parking tickets!’ Is there suddenly a shortage of politicians who are really taking advantage of the system, like Rangel? ETA: When people went on and on during this election about wanting a president to be smarter than them, it made some sense. Now it sounds like people are asking Their Leader to be Better than Them. That sounds stupid and has a much more elusive definition. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/67 "2009-01-28T15:10:17Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > What? It’s a big deal with rightwing nuts and Conservapedia troglodytes. They were tickets he incurred at Harvard when he was a student there. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/68 "2009-01-28T15:23:06Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I’m not seeing the point here. If the IRS says you owe them money, you pay them. You hire a tax guy to figure out how much you owe them. On his advice, you pay them that much. If they audit you, you whimper, bend over, and pay them how much they say. > Then you say, “Hey, we quits?” And they say, “Yeah, you’re paid up, fine.” > > So, Mr. Geither had his _tax guy_ tell him how much to pay, and then he got audited, and the IRS told him how much to pay. And then both of them said he was fine. > > I get the feeling from this interview that he more or less just went, “Fine, how much… okay.” and signed off, instead of double checking things. Amazing, but you’d be surprised how many financial professionals just don’t _want_ to give a shit about their personal finances. It’s much like me not wanting to fix other people’s computers on my day off. > > Then, when the Obama team went over his taxes, they saw this thing, pointed it to him, and he probably went, “Aw, man. Look at that. Plain as day.” and did the voluntary contribution thing. > > It’s not that he carefully missed it. It’s that he got two other specialists, his tax guy, who missed it completely, and an _IRS auditor_ specialist to look at it, and _he_ missed it completely too. +2. Well summarized. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/69 "2009-01-28T15:25:33Z")
I just want to emphasize a point here. Not only did the tax guy miss something, but the IRS agent with the adversarial relationship missed it. The IRS guy had every motive to find all the errors, it’s his job… and he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/70 "2009-01-28T16:29:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It is all one large retirement fund, and we all pay into it. If you were honest, you’d stand behind what you said now, even though it was wrong, rather than shift your view into something else. You’re cheating. You’re a liar. You’re dishonest. Obviously, any opinion you have about someone else’s honesty is worthless. No. There is no fund. Anywhere. Promises to pay out of future receipts, yes–along with the understanding that the delivery on those promises may change when we are no longer able to keep them. That’s not a fund unless you are in marketing. Or Bernie Madoff. Nor is there an Easter Bunny. All the money you pay to the Federal Government is going into what is functionally the same giant bucket, and various distributions along with chits borrowed from future generations is what comes back out. Now. The Feds don’t have a long-term savings “fund” anywhere. (The difference is called a “deficit” when you spend more than all the money you take in.) Unless by “fund” you mean borrowings against future revenues. Open a legit thread somewhere if you are confused about it. Perhaps someone more inclined than I to spend time with the retarded can help you through it. Word of caution: I am not sure anyone who understands the general working of the budget and deficit spending is going to be impressed by being referred to the “Official Social Security” site. Another good chuckle for my day. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/71 "2009-01-28T16:50:42Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > YOU **CAN** REPAY WHAT YOU OWE AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT MR GEITHNER DID WHEN HIS CHEATING WAS MADE PUBLIC DURING HIS VETTING PROCESS. HIS OWN CAPITULATION INDICTS HIM. > > An honest individual would have stood his ground and defended his actions. > . He made a gesture, mostly to appease idiots like you. He could not repay what he owed, it’s impossible. There is no-way, no-how you can pay into your social security fund after the SOL. Geithner made a voluntary contribution to reduce the national debt. That fund is not connected to Social Security. You don’t understand how the Statute of Limitations work, nor do you even have the slightest grasp of Social Security- and yet you feel you can criticize others who can understand these things. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/72 "2009-01-28T16:53:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Social Security tax you pay today is being paid out to a retiree or disability recipient tomorrow. You pay into Social Security, but the money you get out _isn’t_ the same money you paid in. Same with _any_ retirement or insurance plan (or even the money at your bank). I mean, comeon, I learned that in _High School._ Other than Scrooge McDuck, they really don’t finance things by “money vaults” full of greenbacks and silver dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/73 "2009-01-28T17:17:13Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Another good chuckle for my day. As your Geithner article at Conservapedia was for me. Don’t deny you wrote it, as your denial will prove your guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/74 "2009-01-28T17:23:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He made a gesture, mostly to appease idiots like you. He could not repay what he owed, it’s impossible. There is no-way, no-how you can pay into your social security fund after the SOL. Geithner made a voluntary contribution to reduce the national debt. That fund is not connected to Social Security. > > You don’t understand how the Statute of Limitations work, nor do you even have the slightest grasp of Social Security- and yet you feel you can criticize others who can understand these things. :rolleyes: I feel a little like a kid burning ants coming back here, so this’ll be it for me. See, there is no fund. Contributions of real current money taken into SS are swallowed up into the rest of the overall budget. What’s in the SS “fund” are chits against future receipts…I know it’s kind of hard to understand when you are not working with a full deck, but when you fail to pay your SS taxes it’s not correct to imply that you have sort of cheated only yourself out of your own retirement. But hey, you want to go to bat for your guy being uncriticizable even though he evaded taxes and didn’t feel he should repay the evaded taxes when he was caught evading them…go right ahead. Let’s make him Secretary of the Treasury, even. Maybe even let him be boss of the IRS. SOL and all. SoL is more like it…Shit outta Luck for anyone demanding leaders with integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/75 "2009-01-28T20:23:17Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > THE IRS HAS A SYSTEM OF PENALTIES. Agreed and uncontroversial. > [@Liberal](#): > > IT USES THEM ON CHEATERS. Agreed, but somewhat controversial, with support to folllow. > [@Liberal](#): > > IT ALWAYS PENALIZES CHEATERS This is a strong assertion of which I am wholly unconvinced. I do not believe they are infallible in this regard. > [@Liberal](#): > > IT ONLY PENALIZES CHEATERS. This is where the further argument with your second premise comes in. The IRS may well have penalized non-cheaters(meaning those who made honest mistakes) in its history. Given the billions of returns it has processed over the years and the millions of audits, the odds of it having applied penalties to those who made honest mistakes are almost certainly nonzero. Thus both “it uses them on cheaters” and “it only penalizes cheaters” are suspect. It is likely there have been times where penalties were assessed on non-cheaters. > [@Liberal](#): > > IT DID NOT PENALIZE MR. GEITHNER Agreed as a point of fact. > [@Liberal](#): > > **THEREFORE HE DID NOT CHEAT**. Given the disagreements with the above premises, I’m afraid I can’t agree with this conclusion. It may be true, but the premises don’t get us there. The overriding premise is that the IRS is near omniscient. I’ll concede they are one of the most efficiently and effectively run of the bureaucracies, but it does not follow that their judgments are infallible and the final word. It seems certain that cheaters sometimes get away with tax fraud and given the responsibility about to be entrusted to Mr. Geithner, a more detailed evaluation was in order. That having been said, I’m comfortable with the way things turned out. He was scrutinized, he made good. He was made aware he’ll be under a microscope in the future. Even if he cheated on his taxes all those years ago, he’s aware now that the skeletons can’t be hidden when he operates at this level, and I believe he’ll be a faithful public servant. I wish him well in the performance of his duties. I don’t find the case for refusing his appointment on these grounds compelling, but I can respect that others may and I don’t believe the IRS’s actions are incontrovertible proof of the matter in either direction. Strong evidence, to my way of thinking, but not incontrovertible proof. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/76 "2009-01-28T20:35:52Z")
I’ll admit that I was a bit liberal with my rhetoric. But the notion that Geithner seized upon an opportunity deliberately to risk his livelihood and liberty in order to snatch away from an agency legendary for its humorlessness not even enough cash to purchase a decent automobile is downright empty-headed in its conception. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/77 "2009-01-28T21:43:24Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If I cheat on my taxes and the IRS can’t hold me accountable because the SOL has expired…I still cheated on my taxes. I don’t cheat, but Mr Geithner did. That’s why his handlers had him rectify his evasion. Is it at all possible that a person could make an honest mistake in calculating his taxes? How are you so certain that this was not the case with Geithner? Particularly once you consider that he did not calculate his own taxes, but paid someone else to do it for him? It seems to me, particularly given the relatively small amount of money involved (compared to how much he makes overall) that the evidence points pretty compellingly towards this being a genuine oversight, and not deliberate malfeasance. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/78 "2009-01-28T23:51:42Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It’s a big deal with rightwing nuts and Conservapedia troglodytes. They were tickets he incurred at Harvard when he was a student there. That made me literally LOL, since _I_ probably still have unpaid parking tickets from when I was at Harvard. Jesus, the Cambridge police give those things out like candy, and parking is a frigging nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/79 "2009-01-29T01:53:26Z")
[Geithner, Choice for Treasury, Questioned on His Tax Returns - The New York Times](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/geithner-choice-for-treasury-questioned-on-his-tax-returns/?hp) This article says the IRS assessed the taxes he neglected to pay and charged interest. The IRS waived the penalties. Waived. That does not mean he was not subject to penalties, only that he was a big shot and got away. You would not have had them waived. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113/80 "2009-01-29T02:37:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Geithner, Choice for Treasury, Questioned on His Tax Returns - The New York Times](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/geithner-choice-for-treasury-questioned-on-his-tax-returns/?hp) This article says the IRS assessed the taxes he neglected to pay and charged interest. The IRS waived the penalties. Waived. That does not mean he was not subject to penalties, only that he was a big shot and got away. You would not have had them waived. **Liberal** did. Was that because **Lib** ’s a “big shot” with a lot of inside pull with the government? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-f-geithner-part-duex/483113.md?page=5)