# Timothy McVeigh is rotting in his grave **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415 "2005-08-03T13:38:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/81 "2005-08-03T20:54:58Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Tim McVeigh is merely a terrorist wannabee. He was a sad joke of a terrorist. The lack of subsequent action by any group in support of him attests to this fact. I wasn’t aware that someone’s designation as a terrorist relied on whether or not anyone acted subsequently in support of their position. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/82 "2005-08-03T20:55:12Z")
Very well then, client states rather than colonies. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/83 "2005-08-03T20:55:22Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > They caught [Karl Armstrong](http://www.leemark.com/featuredcontent/sterling/sterling.html) in Canada. It only took two years, despite Karlton’s obviously islamic name. And where’s Leo Burt? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/84 "2005-08-03T21:14:51Z")
There’s also John Walker (white, American Taliban), Jose Padilla (Hispanic) and that black guy who tried to light his shoes on fire. These are the guys who are going to walk onto planes unmolested while security is harassing some Syrian lounge singer. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/85 "2005-08-03T21:16:29Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Tim McVeigh is merely a terrorist wannabee. He was a sad joke of a terrorist. The lack of subsequent action by any group in support of him attests to this fact. Is my monitor set to stupid today? Jeesy Chreesy, what a dumb, sad statement. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/86 "2005-08-03T21:31:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There’s also John Walker (white, American Taliban), Jose Padilla (Hispanic) and that black guy who tried to light his shoes on fire. These are the guys who are going to walk onto planes unmolested while security is harassing some Syrian lounge singer. Or a US Senator. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/87 "2005-08-03T21:44:45Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Is my monitor set to stupid today? Jeesy Chreesy, what a dumb, sad statement. OUUUU. the kernals of truth dripping from this post has just astounded me. Talk to me kid when you’ve got something substantial to respond with. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/88 "2005-08-03T22:05:14Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Please tell me that you just read the OP and not the rest of this thread. Please. Rude as that is I refuse to believe that none of 50+ posts following it didn’t make an impression on you. What? What’s the problem? I read the thread. I was more interested in the debates elsewhere–because I’m tired of this whole issue–but wanted to second what the OP stated. Did you get another impression? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/89 "2005-08-03T22:11:26Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > OUUUU. the kernals of truth dripping from this post has just astounded me. Talk to me kid when you’ve got something substantial to respond with. You want _substance_ in response to that idiotic assertion? The reason you’re not getting a substantive response to it is because it’s pathetically stupid on the face of it. Look: A [“terrorist”](http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/terrorist?view=uk) is “a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.” That’s all. Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist. Not a wanna-be terrorist. He was loosely affiliated with groups that foster terrorism in precisely the same way that darker-hued terrorists are loosely affiliated with groups that foster terrorism. He was an effective terrorist in the same way that Muhammad Atta was an effective terrorist. He did the job that he set out to do. He was ineffective in the same way that Muhammad Atta was ineffective – his destructive act did not achieve the political end that he desired. Nobody follows Timothy McVeigh, and nobody follows Muhammad Atta – but there are people who follow their respective ideologies, and it’s a safe bet that there are more Aryan Nations and Christian Identity types with terrorist leanings active within U.S. borders. Simple demographics. How you can possibly dismiss McVeigh as a terrorist is incomprehensible. He was, by terrorist standards, spectacularly successful. And yes, there are plenty of misguided fools who view him as a martyr for the glorious cause, and don’t mind saying so. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/90 "2005-08-03T22:17:40Z")
I have a couple of disconnected points to make, some of them in response to various posts scattered throughout this thread. 1. If you don’t like McVeigh being brought up, you probably really won’t like it when I remind everyone that America used weapons of mass destruction against a huge civilian population way back in 1945. 2. Talking about young, white, American male terrorists, let’s not forget the Smiley Face bomber, who planted bombs in mailboxes across America, sending several people to the hospital. 3. Anne Applebaum has written a great [column](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201943.html) in the Washington Post about how for decades Americans gave financial support to terrorists in Ireland, and how accepted it was here at home. Terrorists who killed people. Yet somehow their names don’t get put on Do Not Fly lists. 4. The American soldiers in Iraq aren’t wrong, our elected officials are wrong. Can we please put the blame where it belongs: squarely on the shoulders of our politicians and the people who elected them? Soldiers join up for a myriad of reasons; most of them did not join in order to go wage this current war. And they’re not allowed to quit. And they can’t just break their contract, the way pro athletes constantly do. and 5) Does anybody else think, “Mmm…yellow cake” when reading about yellowcake uranium? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/91 "2005-08-04T01:25:11Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > He was loosely affiliated with groups that foster terrorism Loosely? What the hell does that mean? Cite me one group that he was associated with that has successfully fostered reported terrorist acts, and bank robbery doesn’t count. > [@](#): > > Nobody follows Timothy McVeigh, and nobody follows Muhammad Atta Well you’re right about McVeigh, its been ten years and nothing reported on non-Islamist terrorist acts against the US federal government since, but are you serious that you didn’t know that Atta was a member of al Qaida? Or that there are documented terrorist acts subsequently attributed to al Qaida? I don’t know why some dopers feel the need to hype up the threat of non-Islamist terrorism in America, but for most of us it just doesn’t exist as a constant threat. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/92 "2005-08-04T02:24:53Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Well you’re right about McVeigh, its been ten years and nothing reported on non-Islamist terrorist acts against the US federal government since… [You can’t](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6435318&postcount=43) [really](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6435670&postcount=53) [be this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6435904&postcount=60) [stupid,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6436066&postcount=68) [can you?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6436197&postcount=74) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/93 "2005-08-04T02:31:20Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Loosely? What the hell does that mean? Cite me one group that he was associated with that has successfully fostered reported terrorist acts, and bank robbery doesn’t count. Christian Identity. By “loosely” I mean just that. It’s not neat and tight, any more that Osama can be said to be directly responsible for 9/11. Cellular organization. Loose association. But here’s what we know: Christian Identity militantly holds the IRS and Federal government as satanic enemies, and trains its adherants in weapons use at survivoralist camps. McVeigh was in close contact with them, especially in the few days before the bombings, when he called the Elohim City community several times. After the bombing, a CI leader at a rally enthusiastically advised “Go look in the Old Testament, God talks about slaughter – don’t leave one suckling! Don’t leave no babies! Don’t leave _nothing!_ Kill them!” > [@](#): > > Well you’re right about McVeigh, its been ten years and nothing reported on non-Islamist terrorist acts against the US federal government since… Except the anthrax mailings, which, although unsolved, are acknowledged at least to be almost certainly a domestic act. Or the plot uncovered in Texas a couple of years ago, where a wackjob was found with hundreds of bombs, including a cyanide bomb, detailed correspondence outlining a plan and several contingencies against an unnamed target, and connections to Christian Identity. Or Eric Rudolph. He didn’t attack the feds, just the cops, civilians at the Olympics, health clinics, and a gay bar. And, of course, he’s a member of Christian Identity. Or… aww, fuck it. > [@](#): > > …but are you serious that you didn’t know that Atta was a member of al Qaida? Allow me to roll my eyes. > [@](#): > > I don’t know why some dopers feel the need to hype up the threat of non-Islamist terrorism in America, but for most of us it just doesn’t exist as a constant threat. Except, you know, the ones who are paying attention. Would you like to tally up the number of attacks in America carried off by al Qaeda, and compare them with those tied to, oh, I don’t know, let’s say, domestic terrorists? Don’t get me wrong, of course there’s a continuing threat from al Qaeda. Just don’t take your eye of the continuing threat from home-grown terrorists. This isn’t “hype,” it’s common sense. While I’m sure (unhappily) there _will_ be another al Qaeda attack on U.S. soil, I’ll bet hard currency that there’s be another significant attack from home-grown right-wing “christian” zealots, first. There’s more of them within the borders, and it’s much easier for them, logistically, to stage an attack. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/94 "2005-08-04T02:47:15Z")
**Millar** and **Larry Mudd** , I concede. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/95 "2005-08-04T02:48:50Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Christian Identity. By “loosely” I mean just that. But didn’t anyone tell you, **Larry**? Generalization applies, in cases of terrorism, only to Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/96 "2005-08-04T03:06:06Z")
> [@zuma](#): > > So quit pulling him out every time someone mentions “muslim” and “terrorist” in the same sentence. He’s now the exception that proves the rule. This is a dumb statement since Eric Rudolph was sentenced to jail only a month ago, and still has sentencing left ahead of him. > [@](#): > > I’m fucking tired of the endless reaching back in time to point out that yes, white American Timothy McVeigh was an honest to goodness terrorist. We get it. He’s dead and thank god for that. Let’s move on and confront terrorism and civilian murders in 2005. And when a white guy commits an AQ-related attack in this country, you’re going to say… \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_? (Fill in the blank) ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/97 "2005-08-04T03:32:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What? What’s the problem? I read the thread. I was more interested in the debates elsewhere–because I’m tired of this whole issue–but wanted to second what the OP stated. Did you get another impression? Eh, I disagree with your feelings, but I shouldn’t have jumped down your throat like that. My bad. It seemed like you just read the OP without reading the counter-agruements, but I’ll take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/98 "2005-08-04T03:46:55Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Eh, I disagree with your feelings, but I shouldn’t have jumped down your throat like that. My bad. It seemed like you just read the OP without reading the counter-agruements, but I’ll take your word for it. Understood. No problem, Thanks for the response. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/99 "2005-08-04T04:05:30Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Can we bring up Eric Rudolph, Stephen John Jordi, or Paul J. Hill? Does Squeaky Fromme count? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415/100 "2005-08-04T04:24:51Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > **Millar** and **Larry Mudd** , I concede. Fair enough. Sorry for calling you stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/timothy-mcveigh-is-rotting-in-his-grave/315415.md?page=6)