# Tinfoil Hat Time **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726 "2004-11-08T21:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/41 "2004-11-09T19:14:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No system is 100% error free. But I think if our election system was as reliable as the ATMs, we’d all feel a lot better I think the major difference here is that banking system is designed for profit. The point of government participation in election process is to stay completely disinterested in the outcome. Can you imagine a banking system disinterested in the outcome and run by volunteers at the local branches level? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/42 "2004-11-09T19:39:15Z")
The problem the election fraud crowd has is that they are trying to build a case using a mountain of flimsy evidence. This county voted Bush but they are registered Democrat. This voting technology is vulnerable. This group isn’t counting via someone’s “approved” method. There was an irregularity here. And a weird thing there. It’s like the UFO crowd saying that 10,000 strange sightings are proof that aliens are among us. It isn’t. A mountain of lousy evidence is a lousy case. What makes a good case is ONE solid set of evidence. Find one programmer who rigged voting machines. Find one set of missing optical ballots. Find your flying saucer with the dead alien inside. Then you will have a story, and a damn good one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/43 "2004-11-10T16:45:13Z")
Well, I hate to inform on my own side, but I can honestly say, in my defense, I had NO IDEA this sort of [cheating](http://www.livejournal.com/community/pagan/1334906.html?thread=14767226#t14767226) was going on ahead of time. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/44 "2004-11-10T17:12:59Z")
Dude, didn’t you ge the memo? Rule number one DONT TALK ABOUT THE MAGICAL CHEATING!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/45 "2004-11-10T17:16:55Z")
The more I read this thread, the more convinced I am we need a robust national standard of balloting, at least for national elections. I tend to have doubts about the significance of voter fraud in this election, simply because the Kerry campaign is thoroughly convinced they lost. No one would have more to gain than them if there were a problem of such magnitude that it would have swung the election their way, and the fact they are confident in their concession leaves me no reason to lend credence to other scenerios. However, I think it’s patently obvious there were plenty of mistakes made, which could have affected hundreds of thousands of ballots. Couple that with fears of registraiton fraud (the pet tinfoil-hat peeve of the pubs) and tabulation fraud (the corresponding tinfoiler for the dems), and, in another close election, indefinite concerns about the legitimacy of the process will remain. Inaction only promotes psychological invalidation of the process, which I think is bad for democracy. Why can’t all parties rally around the need for electoral reform? I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/46 "2004-11-10T17:24:14Z")
I think its a states issue Loopydude…i.e. each state wants to retain control of its own process and doesn’t WANT a national voting standard passed down from on high from Washington. I seriously doubt you’d be able to get something like that through…the states would majorly resist it IMO. I’m just guessing though. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/47 "2004-11-10T18:27:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That said, I DO think they need to put in a feature that prints the results or otherwise puts them on paper for the voter to be able to read…just until the technology is sufficiently understood and trusted. This caveat is as nonsensical as a suggestion that people should lock their doors… just until burglary goes out of fashion. A tamper-resistant backup is necessary, and will indefintely remain necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/48 "2004-11-10T18:38:57Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Why can’t all parties rally around the need for electoral reform? I don’t get it. The cynical answer is that the Democrats aren’t interested in reforms that complicate their votescam methodology (stuffing the ballot box) while not affecting – or even facilitating – the standard Republican votescam methodology (supressing turnout among Democratic-leaning voter blocs). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/49 "2004-11-10T19:31:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think its a states issue Loopydude…i.e. each state wants to retain control of its own process and doesn’t WANT a national voting standard passed down from on high from Washington. I seriously doubt you’d be able to get something like that through…the states would majorly resist it IMO. > > I’m just guessing though. > > -XT Yeah, well, some states want to be able to grant marriage licenses to gay people, but that doesn’t stop some politicians from ramming an anti-gay marriage amendment down their throats. Voting is too important to be left to the states. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/50 "2004-11-10T19:40:48Z")
Hm. I guess I harbor under the crazy notion that for a _national_ election, it would be good to have a national standard. States could do whatever they like with the state elections. It’s not like we don’t have other federally-imposed national standards that are relatively uncontroversial, and generally beneficial; if not, we’d all be using different kinds of TV sets depending on what state we lived in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/51 "2004-11-10T20:42:25Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Yeah, well, some states want to be able to grant marriage licenses to gay people, but that doesn’t stop some politicians from ramming an anti-gay marriage amendment down their throats. Voting is too important to be left to the states. So far as I can tell, only one state wants to be able to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and that state is doing it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/52 "2004-11-10T22:21:07Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Yeah, well, some states want to be able to grant marriage licenses to gay people, but that doesn’t stop some politicians from ramming an anti-gay marriage amendment down their throats. Voting is too important to be left to the states. Can you clarify that? Which states want to legalize SSM and how do you determine that? Has there ever been any poll showing a majority of people in any state favored SSM? How does voting for something amount to ramming something down a state’s throat? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726/53 "2004-11-11T01:53:14Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > The cynical answer is that the Democrats aren’t interested in reforms that complicate their votescam methodology (stuffing the ballot box) while not affecting – or even facilitating – the standard Republican votescam methodology (supressing turnout among Democratic-leaning voter blocs). Another cynical answer is that it’s working pretty well for the Republicans right now, and it always seems to be a Republican in charge whenever questions come up. Of course, Republicans are in charge of most things these days… And **Bricker** , I’m flattered that you read my livejournal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tinfoil-hat-time/273726.md?page=2)