# Tiny errors that drive you insane

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Created:** [February 29, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557 "2016-02-29T19:58:18Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 14

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/261 "2016-03-14T06:49:16Z")

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> [@eschereal](#):
>
> In my neck of the woods, there is no discernible difference in the pronunciation of those words.

Then you’re not pronouncing them correctly.

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/262 "2016-03-14T06:56:46Z")

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> [@Senegoid](#):
>
> Learn the difference between, and correct usage of, _staunch_ and _stanch_ !

I feel the same way about _farther_ and _further_:

Coalition troops are moving _farther_ into Iraq.

I speak German; _further_, I speak Russian.

Also, \*loath \*(or _loth_) is not the same as _loathe_:

I am _loath_ to close. (Lincoln again.)

I _loathe_ tofu!

They are spelled and pronounced differently.

Don’t even get me started on _short-lived_ (long “i”) and _short-lived_ (short “i”). The former is the correct pronunciation. I cringe whenever I hear the latter.

I can understand semi-literate Joe Blow not knowing how to use these, but professional journalists?!? Come on!!!

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**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/263 "2016-03-14T07:03:55Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> Don’t even get me started on _short-lived_ (long “i”) and _short-lived_ (short “i”). The former is the correct pronunciation. I cringe whenever I hear the latter.

Or _long-lived_ and _long-lived_, for that matter! :mad:

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**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/264 "2016-03-14T07:10:12Z")

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Basketball announcers who claim that an outrageous player like Steph Curry who makes baskets at will is **unconscious** when in fact he is shooting with no conscience regarding the feelings of the opposing team. Is he sleepwalking?

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/265 "2016-03-14T07:27:30Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> I can understand semi-literate Joe Blow not knowing how to use these, but professional journalists?!? Come on!!!

Journalists? Aren’t those the people who think _bemused_ is a fancier way of saying _amused_? That \*nonplussed \*is a synonym for _nonchalant_? That \*penultimate \*means ‘even more ultimate’? That _casualties_ of war are people who died?

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**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/266 "2016-03-14T11:10:01Z")

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Another one, “dour” pronounced “doo’ er”.

> [@Johnny\_Angel](#):
>
> Journalists? Aren’t those the people who think _bemused_ is a fancier way of saying _amused_? That \*nonplussed \*is a synonym for _nonchalant_? That \*penultimate \*means ‘even more ultimate’? That _casualties_ of war are people who died?

And have given up on “whom” and use “less” for “fewer”.

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**Author:** ![MacLir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@MacLir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacLir)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/267 "2016-03-14T14:12:24Z")

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> [@thelurkinghorror](#):
>
> It drives me batty when a Western Catholic or Protestant is shown doing the sign of the cross backwards in movies. No examples off the top of my head, it’s just jarringly apparent (the Netflix Daredevil does it correctly). Given western Christianity’s higher familiarity in Hollywood, I’d forgive it if a Orthodox or Eastern Catholic did it the western way in a movie, but instead they go for the unfamiliar.
> 
> And yes, I understand that in the early church it may have been the opposite.

I’ve noticed that too, from time to time, and I was raised Baptist. I was unsure if they had it wrong or if the mnemonic a Catholic friend gave me was wrong.

Spectacles (head), testicles (abdomen), wallet (right shoulder), and watch (left shoulder). :dubious:

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**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/268 "2016-03-14T16:18:20Z")

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Signs that say “Ten items or less.” Items are always quantitative!

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**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/269 "2016-03-14T17:45:25Z")

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> [@terentii](#):
>
> Don’t even get me started on _short-lived_ (long “i”) and _short-lived_ (short “i”). The former is the correct pronunciation. I cringe whenever I hear the latter.

You are wrong. Google it. The long “i” may be more etymologically correct, but has long fallen out of common use. From an American Heritage Dictionary usage note: “The pronunciation (-laɪvd) is etymologically correct since the compound is derived from the noun life, rather than from the verb live. But the pronunciation (-lɪvd) is by now so common that it cannot be considered an error. In the most recent survey 43 percent of the Usage Panel preferred (-lɪvd), 39 percent preferred (-laɪvd), and 18 percent found both pronunciations equally acceptable.”

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**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/270 "2016-03-14T17:50:08Z")

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> [@Senegoid](#):
>
> Yes, yes, I know that some fictionaries – of descriptivist editorial slant of course

I tried to find some firm authority for the definition of the word “fictionary”, and cannot find it. Is that actually a word?

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**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/271 "2016-03-14T18:45:01Z")

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> [@Ludovic](#):
>
> I tried to find some firm authority for the definition of the word “fictionary”, and cannot find it. Is that actually a word?

It’s a perfectly cromulent word. From the Latin _cromulere_.

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**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/272 "2016-03-14T19:10:09Z")

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Yep, and gullible isn’t even in the dictionary. 😉

About the less and fewer thing- when I was in school, teachers always told us one was for amounts and the other was for quantities. Which was for which, I don’t remember. Those teachers also preached the use of dictionaries, apparently for others but not themselves. When I looked up amount and quantity, quantity was defined as amount, and amount as quantity. I blame this for those of my generation not knowing when to use less or fewer. Nowadays, many teachers say fewer is for things counted, and less for amounts not counted. This makes more sense.

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**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/273 "2016-03-14T20:23:29Z")

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> [@california\_jobcase](#):
>
> Nowadays, many teachers say fewer is for things counted, and less for amounts not counted. This makes more sense.

I agree. I don’t know about some hyper-pedantic distinction between “amount” and “quantity”, but it certainly sounds completely wrong to say “I will try to drink fewer water tomorrow”…

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**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/274 "2016-03-14T20:38:50Z")

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OK, anyone remember mathematical inequalities? Like, say, “2 \< 5”. How would you read that out loud? The standard reading would be “Two is less than five”. But the grammar prescriptivists would have us believe that the correct reading is “Two is fewer than five”, since integers are counted. Ever hear of the fewer-than sign?

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**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/275 "2016-03-14T21:43:52Z")

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> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, anyone remember mathematical inequalities? Like, say, “2 \< 5”. How would you read that out loud? The standard reading would be “Two is less than five”. But the grammar prescriptivists would have us believe that the correct reading is “Two is fewer than five”, since integers are counted. Ever hear of the fewer-than sign?

“Smaller”.

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**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/276 "2016-03-14T22:16:52Z")

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> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, anyone remember mathematical inequalities? Like, say, “2 \< 5”. How would you read that out loud? The standard reading would be “Two is less than five”. But the grammar prescriptivists would have us believe that the correct reading is “Two is fewer than five”, since integers are counted. Ever hear of the fewer-than sign?

Two apples is something that can be counted. The number two is an abstract thought concept, and “less than” and “greater than” are symbols used to manipulate abstract thought concepts of that sort. I agree it’s a bit inconsistent, but that’s the accepted mathematical language.

Hey, no one said that the grammar nazis and the math nazis had to agree with each other 🙂

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**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/277 "2016-03-14T22:51:12Z")

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> [@Seanette](#):
>
> I was referring to the written forms, not to spoken. 🙂

Well, I have actually had someone say it to me speaking, not writing. I also wonder if the written form derives from hearing the abbreviated form.

> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#):
>
> Yep. I shaved mine when I got it and I assume some of the high speed troopers still do this though I wouldn’t know. A new beret is thick and fuzzy, wetting it and shaving it streamlines the beret’s look when it’s being shaped.

Wow, that seems like an incredible amount of hassle for headgear that looks stupid no matter how you wear it. I suppose it is slightly less stupid looking than flat across, or folded in the middle like shown in the picture on that page.

> [@Nava](#):
>
> Does “please don’t rape my language” count as a “small thing” or not? How difficult is it to find someone who can explain to an actress who’s supposed to have been after a Javier for ten years that Javier is not pronounced gay beer (I don’t expect Spanish pronunciation, specially in the middle of an English-language sentence, but for [María Moliner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Moliner)’s sake, just say Xavier!)? Is there a sudden shortage or Hispanic cleaners in Hollywood?

I’d need a cite, just so I can have the experience of hearing it pronounced “gay beer”. Jay’-vee-er is the likely pronunciation for an untrained English speaker.

> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#):
>
> Basketball announcers who claim that an outrageous player like Steph Curry who makes baskets at will is **unconscious** when in fact he is shooting with no conscience regarding the feelings of the opposing team. Is he sleepwalking?

Do they mean no conscience for the feelings of their opponents, or do they mean in a non-conscious manner, i.e. on automatic, instinctively, reactively as opposed to slow, deliberate consideration?

> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, anyone remember mathematical inequalities? Like, say, “2 \< 5”. How would you read that out loud? The standard reading would be “Two is less than five”. But the grammar prescriptivists would have us believe that the correct reading is “Two is fewer than five”, since integers are counted. Ever hear of the fewer-than sign?

Mathematical use is a special case?

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**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/278 "2016-03-14T22:59:15Z")

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> [@Kiber](#):
>
> I’ve got two from McDonald’s. Although I haven’t been there in years, so they may have changed by now.
> 
> Fries: They used to (and maybe still do) sell fries in 3 sizes: Medium, Large and Extra Large. Gah! How can the smallest of something be Medium?

At least they don’t call their shortest cup on the menu a “tall”.

> [@eschereal](#):
>
> Apparently, both his father and his brother are called Lloyd Webber. Perhaps it is like how the brother of Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz is known as Raúl Modesto Castro Ruz?

> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> Well, if it’s supposed to be proof that “Lloyd Webber” is an unhyphenated compound surname, there is at least one famous counter example.
> 
> John Ronald Reuel Tolkien’s father was named Arthur Reuel Tolkien, and his brother was named Hilary Arthur Reuel Tolkien, and his children were given names ending “Reuel Tolkien”… but “Reuel” is not part of the surname, which is strictly “Tolkien”. It’s a family traditional terminal middle name. If you alphabetize by last name, you put everyone in that family under “T”.

I rather doubt that Andrew Lloyd Webber gave his _daughter_ Imogen Lloyd Webber the middle name of Lloyd. At least I hope not. Lloyd as a given/middle name is still strictly for males, right? Please, please let it not be that it’s crossed over to the female population…

> [@thelurkinghorror](#):
>
> It drives me batty when a Western Catholic or Protestant is shown doing the sign of the cross backwards in movies. No examples off the top of my head, it’s just jarringly apparent (the Netflix Daredevil does it correctly).

I can’t say I’ve noticed this one, but I have noticed plenty of Protestant ministers/pastors/preachers on TV shows/in movies wearing “the collar”. I’m not saying no denomination uses such thing, as honestly I don’t know what absolutely every denomination may or may not do, but I do know that no Protestant I’ve seen preach in real life has ever worn one. Some might wear robes, most just wear suits.

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**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/279 "2016-03-14T23:06:22Z")

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> [@MacLir](#):
>
> On that note, I’ll mention the pronunciation of the common tan ice cream topping as _kar’-mel_. The word has three syllables: _ **kare’-a-mel** _!
> 
> Carmel is a mountain in Israel. :dubious:

The three-syllable version is the name of my cat. My mother occasionally calls him “Car’mel”, for some reason.

To be fair, I sometimes call him “Pouf”.

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**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-errors-that-drive-you-insane/747557/280 "2016-03-14T23:11:13Z")

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> [@TBG](#):
>
> I can’t say I’ve noticed this one, but I have noticed plenty of Protestant ministers/pastors/preachers on TV shows/in movies wearing “the collar”. I’m not saying no denomination uses such thing, as honestly I don’t know what absolutely every denomination may or may not do, but I do know that no Protestant I’ve seen preach in real life has ever worn one. Some might wear robes, most just wear suits.

I have- although they were not preaching at the time but rather working as chaplains. I know they weren’t Catholic because some were women and some were wearing the clerical collar with a shirt in a purplish color rather than black. I believe some were Lutheran and possibly Presbyterian and I’m certain Episcopalian priests wear it (although strictly speaking they aren’t Protestant.)

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