# Tiny rant: For the love of God, stop writing "ect"! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 30, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494 "2006-10-30T22:18:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fromage_A_Trois)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/41 "2006-11-07T22:38:07Z")
[QUOTE=dwc1970] My pet peeve is when I see “and etc.” That’s like saying “PIN number” or “ATM machine.” [/QUOTE] A colleague of mine says “also aswell”. She is the only person I have ever heard say this. I have never heard her say the word “also” without adding “aswell”. It’s all I can do to not laugh when she says it. I was reading a book yesterday about successful businesses and the chapter I was reading was about banking. It used the phrase “ATM machine”. I was surprised to see it written down in a (presumably proof-read) publication - I’ll forgive people saying it, but writing it has no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/42 "2006-11-08T06:35:30Z")
[QUOTE=Nanoda] The word I was seeing yesterday was ‘rouge’, as in ‘lovable charismatic rouge’, ‘rouge data point’, ect. [/QUOTE] This makes me see red. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/43 "2006-11-08T22:51:25Z")
I think we might have to give up on PIN numbers and ATM machines (and SIN numbers, for Canadians). The ignorance is too strong on those ones. Heck, I’ve heard it like that so often now that it sounds wrong without the extraneous word at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/44 "2006-11-09T06:31:47Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > I’ve always found it odd when someone write &c. &c. &c. Is that really an accepted way of shorthanding “etc”? Well, when you repeat it three times it isn’t very shortening, of course. But yes, “&c.” is a recognized variant of “etc.” As the OP said, “et cetera” is Latin for “and others”, so “&c.” is just substituting the ampersand & for Latin “et”, both of which mean “and”. (In fact, the ampersand itself was originally simply a ligature form of “et”: in some fonts you can still see quite clearly in the ampersand symbol its original components of a big “E” and a little “t”.) > [@h.sapiens](#): > > I think it’s a holdover from early typesetting. Actually, the “et”-ligature or ampersand goes back beyond the invention of printing, perhaps [far beyond](http://www.fonts.com/AboutFonts/Articles/Letterseries/Ampersand.htm): > [@](#): > > Credit for the invention of the ampersand is usually given to Marcus Tiro, who included it in a shorthand writing system he devised in 63 B.C. > > By the time Charlemagne’s scribes developed the Carolingian minuscule in about 775 A.D., the “et” ligature had become a standard part of their repertoire. It remained so all the way until the invention of printing in the 15th century, when the ampersand was adopted, with enthusiasm, by the first typographers. For example, Francesco Colonna’s Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, printed by Aldus Manutius in 1499, used twenty-five ampersands on a single page. Why such liberal use of the ampersand? Early printers wanted to keep their work in the tradition of hand-illuminated manuscripts. And, like us, they considered the ampersand a particularly beautiful character and enjoyed using it for its aesthetic merit ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/45 "2006-11-09T07:20:08Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] I think we might have to give up on PIN numbers and ATM machines (and SIN numbers, for Canadians). The ignorance is too strong on those ones. Heck, I’ve heard it like that so often now that it sounds wrong without the extraneous word at the end. [/QUOTE] I know this has been discussed here before, but I really don’t understand the hate for expressions such as “PIN number” and “ATM machine”. Yes, I know it is redundant, but languages evolve, so I don’t see it as incorrect, and in some cases I think that the “redundant” expression is clearer than the “correct” one. “PIN number”, for example, I consider superior to simply “PIN”, since “pin” has many meanings so adding “number” really adds something. Plus, I’ve seen someone (probably here) mention that it would be too bad if “LED display” was correct but “LCD display” was incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/46 "2006-11-10T14:13:55Z")
[QUOTE=severus] “PIN number”, for example, I consider superior to simply “PIN”, since “pin” has many meanings so adding “number” really adds something. [/QUOTE] It’s replicating a pattern from Chinese, which has so many homonyms, the Chinese have gotten into the habit of making most of their words compounds like this, adding a redundant syllable to reduce ambiguity. Like the Southernism in which a ballpoint writing implement is always called an “ink pen” instead of just a pen. It’s a very Chinese way of word formation. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/47 "2006-11-10T22:30:23Z")
Like “ice hockey.” It sounds strange to Canadians, but it is more accurate than simply “hockey,” which is what we call ice hockey. If we meant any other kind of hockey, we would add a descriptor (field hockey, ball hockey, whatever). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/48 "2006-11-11T01:36:31Z")
In sociolinguistics, the unmarked form tends to be reserved for the privileged or prestige referents. If the word that describes you doesn’t need any qualifiers, that means you rule. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/49 "2006-11-11T04:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] Like “ice hockey.” It sounds strange to Canadians, but it is more accurate than simply “hockey” [/QUOTE] I’ve noticed that people in other parts of the country use the term “skiing” for what I refer to as “snow skiing.” ---
**Author:** ![Hogwash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e57/32.png) [@Hogwash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogwash)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/50 "2006-11-11T14:04:27Z")
The deal with et cetera is that it is highbrow. Although its usage and people’s knowledge of the meaning is common, its roots and translation are classic intellectual fodder. This is why misspellings or misuse of pedestrian words, although annoying, are more forgivable because the person making the mistake is not a faker. Nobody likes a faker. If you want to earn clever points for knowing French loanwords, it helps to spell it ‘voila!’, not ‘viola!’ or, God help me, ‘walla!’. If you want to convince us that you grok the concept of schadenfreude, try putting the little letters the right way round first. If you want to cement your standing as Captain Latin, leader of the Dinner Party Justice Team and master to sidekick Arthouse Cinema Boy, use i.e. properly, you fucker! Well, that’s the theory anyway. I know that et cetera is not the best example, and that not everybody uses ‘clever’ words to sound smart, I’m just postulating that the percentage of fakers might be quite high among the set of bad spellers. Oh well, lassy fair, as they say. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/51 "2006-11-11T14:53:21Z")
And what I hate, relatedly, is when they pronounce it as if the first “t” was a “k”. Like, EK SETERA. It’s ET as in GET. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/52 "2006-11-11T15:13:20Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] I think we might have to give up on PIN numbers and ATM machines (and SIN numbers, for Canadians). The ignorance is too strong on those ones. Heck, I’ve heard it like that so often now that it sounds wrong without the extraneous word at the end. [/QUOTE] And VIN Numbers. In the used car lot the other day I saw that the form that is used (in the millions) to tell window sticker shoppers the make, model, warranty, ect., (pardon me, just kidding) says VIN NUMBER\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. So THAT’S why the salesmen/service crew, ect., keep saying that. Its maddening!. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2006, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/53 "2006-11-12T05:53:52Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] In sociolinguistics, the unmarked form tends to be reserved for the privileged or prestige referents. If the word that describes you doesn’t need any qualifiers, that means you rule. [/QUOTE] WE’RE NUMBER ONE!!! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2006, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/54 "2006-11-12T07:02:17Z")
😕 So when the car I am working on has a problem with the **E** ngine **C** oolant **T** emp sender, just how do you suggest I write it up? ---
**Author:** ![JacksonRoykirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JacksonRoykirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacksonRoykirk)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/55 "2006-11-13T06:02:51Z")
[QUOTE=severus] [snip] Plus, I’ve seen someone (probably here) mention that it would be too bad if “LED display” was correct but “LCD display” was incorrect. [/QUOTE] I can see where people might have a problem with “LCD display,” as that is a redundancy, with the D in LCD standing for “display.” However, “LED display” has no such redundancy. LED stands for “Light Emitting Diode.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/56 "2006-11-14T23:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=JacksonRoykirk] I can see where people might have a problem with “LCD display,” as that is a redundancy, with the D in LCD standing for “display.” However, “LED display” has no such redundancy. LED stands for “Light Emitting Diode.” [/QUOTE] That’s the point. The ‘D’ in LCD means “display”, while the ‘D’ in LED doesn’t. But they outwardly seem to be similar abbreviations. So it would be too bad if we could say “LED display” but not “LCD display”. ---
**Author:** ![JacksonRoykirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JacksonRoykirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacksonRoykirk)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/57 "2006-11-15T10:06:49Z")
[QUOTE=severus] That’s the point. The ‘D’ in LCD means “display”, while the ‘D’ in LED doesn’t. But they outwardly seem to be similar abbreviations. So it would be too bad if we could say “LED display” but not “LCD display”. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, I’m still not getting your point. Maybe it’s because I missed the comment you referred to from the other person. Why would it be too bad if we could say “LED display”, but not “LCD display?” You would correctly say the first, but not the second. If people said “LCD display” was proper, then it would be too bad. Sorry for my seeming lack of comprehension, but this seriously went over my head. ---
**Author:** ![Godfrey\_Daniels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Godfrey\_Daniels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Godfrey_Daniels)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/58 "2006-11-15T23:44:41Z")
There’s a radio commercial airing that urges this: “if you have at least fifty thousand of investments, please call…” gaahhh! Your inability to form a coherent sentence doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in your ability at financial matters, slick. And while I’m here, I must say that even in the hallowed forums of the SDMB, the mis-use of “then” and “than” is rampant. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/59 "2006-11-17T01:31:11Z")
[QUOTE=Godfrey Daniels] There’s a radio commercial airing that urges this: “if you have at least fifty thousand of investments, please call…” gaahhh! Your inability to form a coherent sentence doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in your ability at financial matters, slick.\ [/quote] A common phrase in real estate ads here is, “A must to see.” The house is a must to see? That never looks right to me. > [@](#): > > And while I’m here, I must say that even in the hallowed forums of the SDMB, the mis-use of “then” and “than” is rampant. Ah, there’s a lot of common errors rampant here. You gotta pick your grammar battles. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494/60 "2006-11-17T03:29:34Z")
Well, as long as we’re doing these things… **Department of [del]Motor[/del] Engine Vehicles** That there Toyota, yonder Chrysler, etc? Those are engine vehicles. You really want a motor vehicle, look for something with no gas tank and a huge array of batteries and a place to plug it in to recharge at night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiny-rant-for-the-love-of-god-stop-writing-ect/378494.md?page=2)