Tipping 15%?

[Satan]

Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried:

**Are you saying that managers are incapable of rewarding good employees, and that tippers are more adept at adequately compensating the hardest workers?

**

What I’m saying is that having the ability to vote your pleasure or displeasure with service rendered with a direct vote to a paycheck is incentive for an employee to do a better job.

I followed it up by saying that employees are not always treated fairly when it comes to finances based upon their work, whether it’s good or bad. And they’re not.

Sure, a good server will get a bad tip and vice versa. But the good server will make more overall by far.

**If that’s what you’re saying, I can tell you from experience that the generalization is incorrect.

**

I can tell you from experience that I never had a boss say, “Great work this week! Here’s an extra $50 in your pay envelope!” And many places offer raises based upon tenure as opposed to merit.

*First of all, I don’t see how that’s relevant.
[/quote]
**

I think that looking at the whole issue - how the dismantling of tipping would effect everyone - from the consumer to the restaurants to the servers themselves - is quite valid.

**From your argument, my food would be even cheaper if the waiters were not paid at all, and the tips went up to 25%?

**

They might be, but servers have to get paid something or they would all get screwed with taxes, knowing just who was working and who wasn’t would be a nightmare, and we don’t just tell everyone to tip 25% now! It doesn’t work that way, especially since there are still people who don’t know how to tip BADLY even!

**Great! Maybe we should have the waiters pay for the privilege of working in the restaurant, and raise tips to 30%?

**

A silly argument, however, you might be interested to know that many exotic dancers have to deal wwith this exact system. It’s not unheard of, as such, though applying it to the restaurant industry and the people who frequent restaurants is, again, silly.

**l price of the meal as listed on the menu. The consumer should notice no difference in the total outlay of money for the dining experience.

**

Raising payroll 60% (and I said, that was a very conservative estimate) will do exactly what I said it would - raise the price of food, hurt independent restaurants, and hurt the quality of service.

Also, allow me to say that you also miss the obvious point that tipping people is supposed to make you feel GOOD. I’m sorry that a token of your gratitude is considered some strange monarchial practice, but a lot oif people appreciate this, and I guarantee you that tipping would still go on for that very reason. After all, we tip people such as the guy at the car wash, the doorman who gets you a cab, the pizza delivery guy, and all of them presumably get livable wages. Maybe you don’t do this, then?

Also, I would like to see a citation of how the Swiss plan was implemented, if I could. I have a feeling that things were screwy for a while, I wonder how much the salary was raised to and from, and I wonder about how their government helps (or doesn’t help) businesses in their country compared to our government. Lots of variables here, and also, we’re talking about a country the size and population significantly smaller than ours, with a smaller economy to begin with, which would also contribute to a lesser effect.

---

Yer pal,
Satan

[Satan]

Danielinthewolvesden:

I showed the increase - conservatively - right there above in black and white. While I see your point that a major increase in a budgetary item which is 20% of it would result in a relatively small thing, but you have to look at the extra expenditure in dollar amounts compared with income coming in. Ultimately, if (as my example showed above) a restaurant is paying $6,000 a week more on payroll, the customer is going to eat that $6,000 a week addition (no pun intended). Okay, I don’t think prices would double with more genuine reflection, but I also don’t see only a 12% increase either. Probably closer to a 50-75% increase is more likely, depending on the restaurantand their situation, but either way, I stand by the assertion that food would cost more, some indie restaurants would go out of business, restaurants would have less people working for them, and none of this is good for the quality of service you get, nor the economy which suddenly loses a large number of workers and businesses, as well as people dining out. Eventually, this would hurt everyone.

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Yer pal,
Satan

[Danielinthewolvesden]

Satan: the overall price of the meal would be the same, so why would there be any reduction in patronage?

[WhiteNight]

Billehunt: Restaurant owners choose the rate to pay waiters the same way all other job rates are figured in a free-market: supply and demand, what the market will bear. I.e. waiters are paid almost exactly what they are worth.

Supply and demand only determines what the market will bear. It determines nothing about the inherent worth of the item.

If I have a high supply of crack heads and one is willing to earn $100 by killing you, does that mean you’re only worth $100? Of course not. If simply means that supply and demand has lower the monetary cost of your life.

Similarly, if there were suddenly a doubling of waiters, the service they provide would still be the same, and thus, each waiter would be worth the same. But, by there being more, supply and demand would mean they’d get paid less.

I think you’re confusing economic theories with realities of general life.

Satan: Okay, I don’t think prices would double with more genuine reflection, but I also don’t see only a 12% increase either. Probably closer to a 50-75% increase is more likely, depending on the restaurantand their situation, but either way, I stand by the assertion that food would cost more, some indie restaurants would go out of business, restaurants would have less people working for them, and none of this is good for the quality of service you get, nor the economy which suddenly loses a large number of workers and businesses, as well as people dining out.

If waiters wages were raised to equal their current wage plus tips, they’d end up being paid as much as before, this money ultimately has to come from the customer, as before, it would just come in a different way. But the cost of dining would on average remain the same.

Any restaurant that raised prices by %75 would deserve to go out of business for their dishonesty.

If a current tip level of %15 or so is required to properly pay waiters, then at most %15 would be required to be added to the bill. Probably less because the %15 people who tip pay compensates for the 0% nontippers pay. The main difference is that, like for large parties now, the gratuity would simply be added in.
As for why someone asks why 10% has increased to %15 and now supposedly to %20, you were wrong to dismiss them. They made a good point, you just knee-jerked.

If food prices reflect the cost of living, then basing tips off of food prices seems to make some sense. If 10% was good enough before, why isn’t it good enough now? In 1945 food was cheaper and tips were smaller, but rents were lower. In 2000, the food is more expensive, the tips are bigger, and rents are higher. Seems to work well to me.
OP:

I think tipping based on the difficulty of the meal is appropriate. If I order a bottomless softdrink I expect to tip about $.75, around %35, for that drink, because it requires a fair bit of service compared to a one-time drink.

But, basing tips somewhat on food prices also makes sense. The cost of living is lower in rural areas, if I’m using to tipping $5 on a meal because it costs $20 or so, should I continue to tip $5 in more expensive areas where the cost of living for the waiter is higher? The cost of living is generally reflected in the food prices (assuming the same class of restaurant) so this is a good way to figure the tips.

So, I tip in the 10%-20% range for standard service, and modify that either way depending on difficulty, etc, as well as the quality of the service. If I order as soon as I go in and don’t talk to the waited again until I leave, I don’t feel too obligated to tip big, if I order complicated things or require many trips from them, I tip big.
But, I would support the abolishment of tips. I’d much prefer waiters get a living wage. This also protects waiters in case of events beyond their control, like slow nights. I would support the raising of costs to pay them, but only as far as I thought the money was actually used for wages and not just to raise the profit margin a bit. (As I would if they tried to raise food prices %50…)

This way, tips could really reflect service. If service was standard, we’d go away knowing the waiter could still pay rent. If service was really good or we liked them a lot, we’d toss on a buck or two, thus having a positive effect on their hourly wage. (I’d love a $2/h temporary raise whenever my boss thought I did something good.) We wouldn’t feel obligated to tip just to keep our food from being spit in.

[Bucky]

Originally posted by elbows3:
**Bucky
Would you like to be paid what your Dad was getting at your current age? Grow up.
**

Elbows, do the math. A meal that might have cost ten dollars thirty years ago could cost thirty now. I would not be making the same amount as my dad did then, because inflation has driven all the prices higher and would thus drive the wages higher. If growing up means learning basic math skills, perhaps you’re the pot and I’m the kettle?

Anyway, the observation was that the “magic number” (e.g. the %)for tipping has gone steadily higher. I was looking to see if anyone could meaningfully contribute an explanation, not for a fairly simple insult.

Bucky

[Arnold_Winkelried]

Satan, sorry, I don’t know the details about how the change was implemented in Switzerland. All I know is when I went back on vacation my parents told me in a restaurant “tips are included in the bill now.” During that same trip, all the restaurants I remembered were still there, and when I asked someone (a friend of mine who had once worked as a waiter) if there had been protests from restaurant owners or waiters about this, he said that in an opinion poll he read, the public was in favour of it (around 65% IIRC), and restaurant workers were split pretty much evenly.

Most of the other points I wanted to make were mentioned by WhiteNight, namely I think you’re overestimating the resultant price increase that would occur (I saw no such price increase in Switzerland, and your own numbers indicate a 12-15% increase), and the fact that my main argument is that waiters should get a decent wage.

I am not arguing against tipping per se, what I disagree with is paying waiters ridiculous wages ($2 an hour in your example?) to make them hustle for tips. Right now, when I go to a restaurant and the service is slow or the waiter uninformed or what not, I still give my 15-20% tip because I know the waiter is not being paid a fair salary, and I wouldn’t feel right “stiffing” them. If waiters had a decent salary, people who wanted to tip them could still do so. There’s no law that would prevent you throwing in some extra money if you feel that’s the right way to reward them. I personally give tips to people for personal services (carwash, pizza delivery, etc…) but in the case of waiters I feel an obligation to do so because I know of their poor salary.

You called one of my arguments silly. I was just taking your argument and showing how the reasoning “waiter salaries need to be kept low to make sure we have cheaper meals in restaurants” is absurd in my book. If the price of a meal has to rise to make sure waiters get paid fairly, so be it. I hear the same argument from business owners when any increased employee compensation is asked for, i.e. “you’re killing free enterprise and we won’t be able to surive that way.” If you look at the history of the labour movement, you will see that the same arguments were raised when unions originally asked for paid vacations, insurance benefits, periodic raises, or when the government introduced a federal minimum wage. Nonetheless, here we are with a healthy economy despite all these employee benefits.

I can tell you from experience that I never had a boss say, “Great work this week! Here’s an extra $50 in your pay envelope!” And many places offer raises based upon tenure as opposed to merit.

Maybe you never worked at the right place! At my first job out of school, where I was a programmer, the owner sometimes came by and did just that. (Handed out $100 bills for a good job.) Though I will admit that it’s rare. It’s more common (and has happened several times to me in my profession in the software industry) to get an unexpected bonus, or a higher than average raise, to reward hard work. Raises based on tenure are justified in my back because an employee’s experience is valuable, as anyone that has had to train a new employee can attest. And I will take that option any day over the choice of depending on the public for my salary. Again, read the examples above of people that don’t know how to tip in our current system. I worked in a restaurant myself and can tell you countless stories of waiters getting no tip even though the service was good or at least adequate.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

(what was I thinking?)

Raises based on tenure are justified in my book because an employee’s experience is valuable, as anyone that has had to train a new employee can attest.

[2sense]

Hello friends,

I am a server(the current PC term).
I have been a wait(also acceptable, being gender neutral) for over a decade. So, I have heard all the arguments over tipping. I just got back from training servers in a new resturant my small midwestern chain opened. Or I would have chimed in sooner.

To answer the OP:
Lifting the plate is not particularly difficult. Sometimes convincing your guests that you deserve their hard earned dollars IS.

The difference of tipping by % vs by the head is quallity service.

If people tipped per person, then everyone would allways tip the same amount(Here’s my 2 bucks, Fred).
This removes the incentive for good service.
By tipping, you are making yourself more important to your server. You are, in fact, one of their employers. They work for you.

I don’t know about economic chaos if things changed, but your service would certainly decline. Every good server I know can tell you on which tables they made their money at the end of the night. They are working hard for you(or rather, for your dollars).

Tipping 15% or 20% automaticly is foolish.
If your service was excellent, you should tip more.
If your service was poor, you should tip less.
If your service was nonexistant, so should be the tip.

Not everyone is cut out for this kind of work. By automatic tipping you are encouraging poor service for everyone. I repeat: Do Not Tip Automaticly.

I have an acronym I tell new waits.
YMYMATT: You Make Your Money At The Table.

Ever wonder why your food is late and you can’t find your server? They are hiding in the kitchen because your food is taking too long and they are afraid to face you. I tell them to go out and entertain you until it is.

As to the gratuity added to large parties, it is there to convince servers not to bitch about getting them. I, personally, refuse to wait on more than 5 people at a time. With more people at a table invariably there is at least 1 person there that won’t shut up. I try to spend as little time as possible actually waiting(standing there doing nothing) at your table. I have things that need done. With 6 tops and higher, this is all too often extremely difficult.

Also, I don’t know any servers that claim 100% of their tips.

Finally, when I get bad food when I am dining out, I never, NEVER, send it back to be recooked. TRUST me on this. Tell your server that you understand it wasn’t their fault and ask for another salad or a bowl of soup instead. I’m SERIOUS.

___________________________PEACE

Just putting my 2sense in

You may the heavyweight champion of the world…
You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls…
But, you’re gonna have to serve somebody.
Bob Dylan

[vpandora]

Ignoring all the calculations, etc., this is how I do tipping…

I always tip based on service, how many people I am out with, and how much we had to bother them. If me and my SO go out to eat, total $15 or less, and the service was average, (good) I always tip $3. If they were very nice, asked us how our stuff was, if they could do anything else for us, etc., I will add more. (I am trying to teach my SO this…he comes from a cheap family) Once, I went out to eat with an old friend at a place I have never been. I ordered chicken fried chicken, not realizing like an idiot that it would be slathered with gravey…I at first kept my mouth shut when it came to the table. I thought…‘just eat it’ but couldn’t bring myself to. With the fear of God in me, I told the server (very shamefully) that I hadn’t read the menu correctly, and should have asked to hold the gravy, and I didn’t know if she could do anything about it?..She was nice, and said the cook could scoop the gravy off of the potatoes and cook me another chicken…I accepted that, very thankfully, and tipped her <b>heavily</b> for being so understanding, and not making me feel stupid.
If service is pretty bad, I give 1 or 2 bucks, unless I was in a big group. Only once did I not tip, it was a server at Village Inn who said "Sure, I’ll take the time out from all these other customers to make <b> YOU </b> a milkshake. And she didn’t give me a spoon or a straw…and I swear, I thought I felt a loogie in there…

P.S. FWIW, the person who stated teens at McDonalds make minimum wage: my brother started at $8 (he is practically illiterate) a whole dollar more an hour than what a copy place was willing to pay its desktop publishers.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

Originally posted by 2sense:
…
Tipping 15% or 20% automaticly is foolish.
If your service was excellent, you should tip more.
If your service was poor, you should tip less.
If your service was nonexistant, so should be the tip.
…
Ever wonder why your food is late and you can’t find your server? They are hiding in the kitchen because your food is taking too long and they are afraid to face you.

That’s the reason I tip automatically. I’m not going to stiff a poor slob making $2.00 an hour if the service suffers because of circumstances beyond his control, and I don’t know enough of what’s happening behind the scenes to make an accurate judgment.

[2sense]

Arnold Winkelried:

I’m not saying you should punish your server for circumstances which are not under their control. It is not allways easy to tell what the problem is, even for me.

I am saying that better service for everyone would come from tipping based on how your meal went. If you leave every server the same percentage then there is no incentive for good service.

And I do mean “leave”. Another factor in a wait’s daily takehome is turnover. I, personally, sometimes like to linger after a fine meal. But, I am willing to tip for the extra time I am taking up the server’s table.
Taking up 1 of a servers limited number of tables through an entire rush is demoralising.
These people are refered to as “campers” or “squatters”.

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Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny,* like Hell*,* is not easily conquered*.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

[Spoke]

DoctorJ wrote:

Every Cracker Barrel server can tell you the story of the party of twelve that took up the entirety of your energy and attention for an hour and a half, ran you to death the whole time, had no problem at all with the service, and left no tip whatsoever.

What a bizarre coincidence:

I just got a call yesterday from a friend of mine who works at Cracker Barrel. She was telling me what a horrible day she’d had, and the main reason was she had spent much of her afternoon serving a large and very demanding party, only to have them leave her a one dollar tip!

Now, this friend of mine is simply one of the best at what she does. (She is generally acknowledged by her employer to be the best at her restaurant, and gets frequent complimentary remarks from diners.) I have never known her to give poor service or to be anything other than ultra-friendly to anyone who comes in the restaurant.

She was so infuriated and frustrated by this incident that she risked her job by running out to the parking lot to catch these folks. When she caught up with them, she asked them, in innocent tones, if she had done anything to offend them. They sputtered for a moment but said that she had not.

What is the deal with tightwads like this? Cripes!

[inertia]

There’s no way in hell I’m going to tip 20 percent.

I was on a date this past Sunday with a very nice young lady (who waited patiently while I fixed the car so we could get home) and we received the worst service imaginable. After we sat down and waited for 10 minutes I finally had to hijack a passing waitress just to get our order in. The same waitress brought my food 15 minutes later and about 5 minutes before my lovely date received hers. The waitress was lucky it was a first date or she wouldn’t have gotten the %10 I did leave. Stupid $%&^!@#!!!

Jo3sh:

the charge slip had a notice that 15% had been added “as a gratuity,”

I once was in this situation and had received bad service to boot. I told them I wasn’t going to pay it and that they had better take it off. They did. I never went back either. I don’t find the habit of including the tip on the bill insulting. Some people just can’t figure out what %15 of something is and it helps 'em to have something in writing.

DoctorJ: You’re not actually recommending Cracker Barrel are you? They don’t serve a single thing there that isn’t laden with 2 lbs of grease. Speaking of people who can’t figure out how much %15 of something is . . . let’s talk about the Cracker Barrel patrons for just a moment - old people who still think a dime is a lot of money. They need it written on the bill.

Satan:

If restaurants had to pay servers a normal wage, their payroll expenses - in most restaurants already exponentially higher than other fields - our meals would literally DOUBLE in price

I don’t think so. I would like to counter with the idea that total meal costs would go down when the servers have a fixed income of $8.00/hour (or even minimum just like all the other meanial laborers) instead of the wage+tip = $10-$12 that someone mentioned earlier. Additionally, those of us who tip wouldn’t have to carry the weight of those who don’t when the wage was set by the restaurant. Markxxx mentioned $40k-$50k for 4 6 hour days/week. That’s better than I get paid when you factor in the time off and I’m working in the field of my degree and having to pay off this damned student loan. Oh, I almost forgot, a signifigant portion of that income goes unreported and is tax free. :: calculating :: 40000/52(weeks)/4(days)/6(hours) - 5 (what restaurant pays) = $27/hour. If %60 is reported, 27*.4=$11/hour tax free = $13728/year tax free. I would be paying about %30 in tax soooo . . . a waitperson at a good restaurant makes over $4,000 more than I do and gets an extra 52 days off to boot. I realize that not all waitpersons get this sort of income, but it’s basically unskilled labor. I don’t mind tipping %15, but there’s no way in hell I’m gonna tip %20.

I hate it when restaurants split tips among all of the employees. It’s counter incentive.

What this system really needs is some way for the waitpersons to determine who’s going to leave a legitimate tip. No matter how good of service some people get, they’re not going to leave a good tip so why try. I usually leave a good (at least %15-%20) tip so shouldn’t I get better service from the git go? Shouldn’t some non-tipping loser get the service he’s paying for? That way the waitperson will not have to gamble so much on their investment of time.

[BRIAN_BROVOLD]

As a former waiter I know how hard the job can really be. I ALWAYS TIP WELL!/ My wife go out almost every weekend and usally draw a 40$ bill thats with drinks. and the server will get 5 to 7 bucks. the exception to this is service. when i was a server I demanded att. to detail. things like appearance, presentation of food,and handling my customers requests promply. If i ask for an ashtray I don’t want it when the food arrives I want it the next time he come around. 2.) if my server looks like a scumbag I will leave./3) If I am taking guest’s out and they forget bacon on a burger we want that food back promply. I don’t like to eat alone and I would not expect my guests to do so either. Don’t get me wrong i have alot of repect for what these people do and if they treat me right they will be rewarded. unfortunatly there are always people who are cheaP IF YOUR TO CHEAP TO TIP (providing service was good) THAN STAY HOME!!!

[2sense]

BRAIN BROVOLD,

FYI $5 to $7 is not a good tip on a $40 check. $6 is 15%.

Originally posted by BRIAN BROVOLD:
IF YOUR TO CHEAP TO TIP (providing service was good) THAN STAY HOME!!!

Of course, I feel that you should tip what you feel your server deserves.

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Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny,* like Hell*,* is not easily conquered*.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

[BRIAN_BROVOLD]

I understand what your saying but generally service where we go is average at best although-if service is execelent I would most certainly tip much better than that.

As a waiter I used to fight about who would take a family of 5 3 of witch being kids under 8. they came in almost once a day and NOT ONCE left a dime. HUGE MESS,NON TIPPERS=BAD SERVICE.

[2sense]

Originally posted by BRIAN BROVOLD:
**As a waiter I used to fight about who would take a family of 5 3 of witch being kids under 8. they came in almost once a day and NOT ONCE left a dime.B]

This situation would cost me my job.

I would refuse. Period.

1 nice thing about this work is that you can allways find another job.

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Just putting my 2sense in.

Tyranny,* like Hell*,* is not easily conquered*.
-Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher)

[WhizBang]

Forbes magazine recently undertook a study on the relationship between tipping and service and found that surprise there is no correlation between the quality of service and the size of tips. The main reason that people leave big tips is not to reward exceptional service but rather to impress their cohorts with their generousity. In economic terms, this leaves us with a system that is arbitrary, at best. The solution? Pay waitstaff what they are really worth and let management do its job of insuring that quality service is delivered, just like it does in more rational industries.

[Satan]

Originally posted by WhizBang:

Forbes magazine recently undertook a study on the relationship between tipping and service and found that surprise there is no correlation between the quality of service and the size of tips. The main reason that people leave big tips is not to reward exceptional service but rather to impress their cohorts with their generousity.

Any idea whay types of establishments were looked at? Judging from the magazine, I’ll bet it was corporate upscale establishments. The family-oriented restaurants I worked at di not show this trend, as I don’t recall many fathers tipping a lot to impress their seven year old.

This reminds me of when the daytime talk shows would do shows about servers and have a slew of waitresses from Taven On The Green and places like that. This did not paint a typical picture of the average server at all. I mean, where were the waffle house graveyard shift waitresses?

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Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
One week, one day, 13 hours, 30 minutes and 6 seconds.
342 cigarettes not smoked, saving $42.81.
Life saved: 1 day, 4 hours, 30 minutes.

[Spiny_Norman]

Personally, I rather like the European model with “service included” - hardly surprising, I rarely encounter anything else. I can tip if I want to - and I do, if the service is good - but there’s no obligation to do so, and lots of people never do. The waiters are paid at least a minimum wage, and a well-run restaurant will obviously hire competent waiters. I LIKE the idea of a waiter providing good service because he’s a pro and it’s a matter of pride to him, not because he hopes to gain an extra 5%.

There is, however, one serious drawback: The places that try to stay in business by selling you one overpriced meal and not expect to see you again. If enough tourists pass by a restaurant every day, the owner is practically guaranteed a minimum number of gursts - and if he doesn’t expect to cater for the locals, he can hire rude staff and sloppy cooks (or vice versa) and stay in business practically forever. In such cases, I would like to be able to withhold a tip in the most aggressive manner possible.

Just my 0.02 Euro, service compris

Norman