# Tipping in America: the insult tip **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2017, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226 "2017-08-20T23:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/141 "2017-08-22T11:24:24Z")
Americans may or may not take milk in their tea; you have to ask for it. (I put lemon in mine; my working-class British ex-BF’s family thought I was snooty until he did some explaining.) I’ve noticed that it’s common to have tea with milk among those of Irish descent where I live now (metro Boston). Anyway, if only there were a way to communicate that you would like something. Yes, she should have asked “Can I get you anything else?” and “How is everything?”, but if the food wasn’t awful and the waitress didn’t do anything truly horrible, an insult tip is not right. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/142 "2017-08-22T13:11:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’d allow this as long as, according to internationally codified restaurant fight narrative convention 1.12 (a3) one of them whipped the tablecoth from under the dishes of startled diners “magician” style and tried to strangle the other one with it. _or_ a baguette was used as a sword. You forgot threw a stack of plates like discuses. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/143 "2017-08-22T13:17:13Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Not true. In the U.S., all employees must be paid the federal or state minimum wage, whichever is higher. You think companies never break the law? Yeah, right. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/144 "2017-08-22T13:47:33Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > You forgot threw a stack of plates like discuses. OK, we’ll allow that as well even though that’s in sub-section (a4) along with “using a whole ham as a club” ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/145 "2017-08-22T13:55:53Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s not a “belief”, it’s federal law. > > I realize that this is MPSIMS, a social forum, but it’s also part of the SDMB, which claims to be fighting ignorance. > > At least three different posters have claimed, in this thread, that servers make less than minimum wage. NOT TRUE. Wow! All-caps. That definitely places your evidence at a higher standard than those sham posters, **Stranger on a Train** and **Left Hand of Dorkness** brought to the table. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Not sure how you reconcile that with, for example, this](http://www.dllr.state.md.us/labor/wagepay/wptipped.shtml): > > Is it the passive voice that lets you reconcile it, inasmuch as they must be paid that, but not necessarily by their employer? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > From the [US Department of Labor website](https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips): > _A tipped employee engages in an occupation in which he or she customarily and regularly receives more than $30 per month in tips. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 per hour in direct wages if that amount combined with the tips received at least equals the federal minimum wage. If the employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference. Many states, however, require higher direct wage amounts for tipped employees._ > > While the employer is ostensibly obligated to make up the difference if employees do not make the equivalent of minimum wage with their hourly pay and tips, there is essentially no enforcement of this regulation. > > Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/146 "2017-08-22T14:23:35Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Has there ever been a tipping thread on the Dope that didn’t turn into a train wreck? I despise tipping, but it’s part of life in the United States. Just as like imperial units, Fahrenheit, the electoral college, and one dollar bills. I wish we could abolish tipping, switch to metric and get rid of the electoral college and dollar bills. But, it’ll take smarter people than I to accomplish these things. Maybe we heed a thread asking why so many people think tipping at restaurants is as uniquely American as the other things. It’s not. Many other countries don’t have it, but it’s far from unique to the US. ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/147 "2017-08-22T14:40:45Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > My understanding is an “insult tip” is 10%. Also, it would pertain to the poor quality of the service and not the food. I always thought it was 1¢, to signify “I did not forget the tip, your service was just so awful that you don’t deserve one.” ---
**Author:** ![peedin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peedin/32/14095_2.png) [@peedin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peedin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/148 "2017-08-22T14:42:36Z")
To quote Donald Pleasence from _The Great Escape_: “Tea without milk is so uncivilized.” ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/149 "2017-08-22T15:37:42Z")
It’s been a day and a half since the OP tried uselessly to defend their position. Maybe the thread should die now. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/150 "2017-08-22T16:09:47Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Wow! All-caps. That definitely places your evidence at a higher standard than those sham posters, **Stranger on a Train** and **Left Hand of Dorkness** brought to the table. My evidence is from the U.S. Department of Labor. Others are posting anecdotes. Which one do you think meets a higher standard of evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/151 "2017-08-22T16:18:57Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > This is why we need to reform tipping culture. > > I don’t mind paying for my service directly, and I actually pay more than 20%. > > But what I do mind is subsidizing the jerks who won’t tip and give a bunch of nonsense as to why they won’t tip. How do you know what others are tipping, and who are “jerks”? If tipping is for service, are you being a jerk if you leave a low tip for genuinely lousy service (not food quality)? How have you decided that 20% or “more than 20%” is fair or reasonable? Is the same percentage appropriate at all types of restaurants (diners, cafes, casual, bar, family, hotel, resort, upscale, etc.)? Is the same percentage appropriate if you drank water or if you spent $15 per person in drinks? Why has the customary amount risen from 10 to 15 to 20 percent over time? Do we know, and should we care, that tips are usually split with bartenders and busboys, but not always? Should we care that servers sometimes make a lot of money on a shift, but other times not very much? While I think the OP was misguided in leaving only a nickel, and tips should be left except in very rare occasions, I’m of the opinion that a tip or gratuity is completely discretionary on the part of the customer. I also think things tend to average out in the end. If they didn’t, why would servers still work where they do? ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/152 "2017-08-22T17:10:45Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Steady on, that’s a bit excessive. Are you seriously saying foreigners opposed to tipping should be viciously beaten and thrown out of the country as soon as practical? I am not, and mean no offense to any other person visiting from abroad. I’m afraid I can’t explain due to the Mod note. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/153 "2017-08-22T17:39:17Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Wow! All-caps. That definitely places your evidence at a higher standard than those sham posters, **Stranger on a Train** and **Left Hand of Dorkness** brought to the table. The problem is that **D’Anconia** is right. Federal law requires that, one way or another, all workers, including tipped workers, be paid at least the federal minimum wage. Does this always happen? Of course not. There are always people who are willing to break the law, and that group includes employers who try to get around the minimum wage laws. The first time i learned about employers doing this was all the way back in 2001, just after i moved to the US, when i read Barbara Ehrenreich’s excellent book, _Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America_. In the book, Ehrenreich discusses the fact that tipped workers are allowed by federal law to be paid $2.13 an hour, as long as their employer brings them up to full minimum wage if they don’t get enough tips. She also notes, however, that many employees are not aware of this rule, and so some employers take advantage of it, and fail to meet their obligations. But the fact that some people break the law doesn’t mean that the law doesn’t exist. Arguing that **D’Anconia** is wrong here is like arguing that robbery or sexual assault are allowed in America, just because some people ignore the laws against robbery and sexual assault. For example, i think that **Stranger On A Train** ’s argument here is misguided: > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > While the employer is ostensibly obligated to make up the difference if employees do not make the equivalent of minimum wage with their hourly pay and tips, there is essentially no enforcement of this regulation. First, you need to replace the word “ostensibly” with “legally.” There’s nothing hidden or misleading about the law itself. Employers are absolutely required, by federal law, to ensure that their employees, including tipped employees, receive at least the federal minimum wage for the work they do. And if tipped employees are paid $2.13 per hour, and their tips do not bring them up to $7.25, the employer is absolutely required to make up the difference. I also take issue with the “no enforcement” claim. It is true that violations of this law probably often go unenforced because, as Ehrenreich notes, many employees do not even know that the law exists, and that they’re being stiffed. But this doesn’t mean that there’s no enforcement. I guarantee that if you know of an instance where this sort of underpayment by employers is occurring, and you gather evidence that it’s occurring and get employees to make a complaint, the Department of Labor will take your claim seriously, and will investigate. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/154 "2017-08-22T17:54:19Z")
[QUOTE] > [@mhendo](#): > > Employers are absolutely required, by federal law, to ensure that their employees, including tipped employees, receive at least the federal minimum wage for the work they do. And if tipped employees are paid $2.13 per hour, and their tips do not bring them up to $7.25, the employer is absolutely required to make up the difference. $7.25/hr in most places (all places?) is shit pay. That’s why I’m a generous tipper. On the rare occasion I get bad service, I assume the server is having a bad day and still tip well. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/155 "2017-08-22T18:02:03Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > $7.25/hr in most places (all places?) is shit pay. That’s why I’m a generous tipper. On the rare occasion I get bad service, I assume the server is having a bad day and still tip well. I completely agree that $7.25 is shitty. It’s fucking terrible. I also tend to tip well, even if the service isn’t great. The server would pretty much have to tell me to go fuck myself, or spit in my food, for me to leave no tip at all. But that is, for the purpose of my argument about employer obligations, irrelevant. The $7.25 minimum sucks, but it is, in fact, the minimum, and employers are obliged to conform to it, even for tipped employees. They can pay their tipped employees less than $7.25, but if the employees’ tips don’t bring them up to minimum wage, the employer is legally obligated to make up the difference. FYI, as of 2016, 29 US states have minimum wages that are higher than the federal minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/156 "2017-08-22T18:21:02Z")
> [@peedin](#): > > To quote Donald Pleasence from _The Great Escape_: “Tea without milk is so uncivilized.” **Thank you.** I’ve been trying to recall when I first heard of milk in tea, and I’m almost positive this is it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/157 "2017-08-22T18:26:43Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > At McDonald’s, you walk in, you walk to the counter, you give them your order, you stand there and wait for your food, then you’re entirely on your own. You want a napkin? Ketchup? More to drink? “They’re all over there.” _You_ go to _them_. Actually, at least at the McDonald’s here, the sequence has recently changed to: go up to the counter, order, take your number table-tent, sit down, they bring the food to you. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/158 "2017-08-22T18:27:47Z")
> [@](#): > > $7.25/hr in most places (all places?) is shit pay. That’s why I’m a generous tipper. > [@](#): > > I completely agree that $7.25 is shitty. It’s fucking terrible. I also tend to tip well, even if the service isn’t great. Waiters and waitresses make a great deal more money than people who actually work for minimum wage or a little above it. Do you also seek out the cooks and other back-end workers at restaurants? They probably make minimum wage. What about store clerks? They are waiting on you and almost certainly make less than waiters. Do you leave a tip each week for your trash hauler? What about the lifeguard who’s watching your kid at the pool? For that matter, what about the people watching your kids at day care? There is a good chance they are making less than the servers you go out of your way to generously tip. Look, I’m not saying to not leave a tip, because it is indeed customary where it is indeed customary. But if you really want to go on a crusade to pay more to people who aren’t earning much money, and who provide services to you, then there are a lot who make less than tipped servers. It just seems to me that people are free to pursue other work if the combination of hours, treatment, pay and benefits isn’t satisfactory. As I said, I assume that it all works out in the end, or the servers would go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/159 "2017-08-22T18:38:20Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > This is out of line here, **Nawth Chucka**. Don’t wish harm on other posters or you’ll be warned next time. Am I the only person that read her post as sarcasm? It was in response to this (IMO) even snottier post that everyone ignored: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Blank Slate** :] > > If you can’t respect local customs, then go back to wherever it is you came from. And stay there. I hope it’s not a violation to talk about this, but I think she’s being misunderstood by several people including our dear **Idle**. /sucking up ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226/160 "2017-08-22T18:40:56Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Waiters and waitresses make a great deal more money than people who actually work for minimum wage or a little above it. Do you also seek out the cooks and other back-end workers at restaurants? They probably make minimum wage. What about store clerks? They are waiting on you and almost certainly make less than waiters. Do you leave a tip each week for your trash hauler? What about the lifeguard who’s watching your kid at the pool? For that matter, what about the people watching your kids at day care? There is a good chance they are making less than the servers you go out of your way to generously tip. > > Look, I’m not saying to not leave a tip, because it is indeed customary where it is indeed customary. But if you really want to go on a crusade to pay more to people who aren’t earning much money, and who provide services to you, then there are a lot who make less than tipped servers. It just seems to me that people are free to pursue other work if the combination of hours, treatment, pay and benefits isn’t satisfactory. As I said, I assume that it all works out in the end, or the servers would go elsewhere. Servers make more \*because \*we tip. I would vote to increase the minimum wage for everyone, and I do vote for politicians who favor such a move. Yes, lots of people have lousy income and deserve more. If not for generous tippers, wait staff would be on the list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-in-america-the-insult-tip/794226.md?page=9)