# Tipping makes no sense **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466 "2010-06-08T20:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/61 "2010-06-16T16:43:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Bartending is hard work, on top of serving many people, they have to refill the beer cases and change kegs. The skill level is higher than waitstaff because they have to mix drinks, and there are a lot of different types. Additionally, there is a great responsibility because the bartender often has to make the decision about whether to serve someone another drink, check the IDs of the youthful looking, and double as a bouncer. They may be responsible for inventory and cleaning as well. On top of all that, bartenders are expected to entertain and listen to your problems. I’ve been a bartender, it was probably the most fun job I’ve ever had. Social, and pretty simple really. Mixing drinks is easy, and if you screw up, you just do it again (obviously within reason…but everyone screws up a drink from time to time). I used to change kegs but plenty of staff didn’t, especially the hot girls that get a lot of the tips. And as for bouncers; clubs and many bars actually have bouncers, whereas if you work in MaccyD’s and it all kicks off (as frequently happens, at least in my city), it’s up to the regular staff to control the situation. I can’t see why one is worth a tip per transaction versus essentially no tips. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/62 "2010-06-16T18:07:12Z")
**TriPolar** said: > [@](#): > > Bartending is hard work, So is construction, doesn’t mean they get tips. > [@](#): > > on top of serving many people, Fast food places have busy periods and serve many customers. > [@](#): > > they have to refill the beer cases and change kegs. Fine and dandy, but that is not a personal service, and does nothing to earn a tip from _me_. Maybe that should earn them a tip from their employer… or maybe a salary. But tip from _customers_? No. > [@](#): > > The skill level is higher than waitstaff because they have to mix drinks, and there are a lot of different types. That’s the legitimate point in my mind. Mixing drinks is a skill, and it is a personal service, as opposed to getting fries out of a basket. Admittedly, is it any more complicated than making a sandwich with turkey breast, extra mayo, no tomato, and add bacon. Salt and pepper, oil and vinegar,"? > [@](#): > > Additionally, there is a great responsibility because the bartender often has to make the decision about whether to serve someone another drink, check the IDs of the youthful looking, and double as a bouncer. They may be responsible for inventory and cleaning as well. All of those are job responsibilities that do not improve the customer’s service, but in some cases even detract. None of those are reasons for the _customer_ to give the bartender a little extra. Note that fast food workers are also responsible for cleaning. > [@](#): > > On top of all that, bartenders are expected to entertain and listen to your problems. Now that is a personal service deserving of tipping. Thing is, some bars that is more conducive than others. Bars in dance clubs are not typically like that - too noisy, too crowded. ---
**Author:** ![Notchimine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bcef8e/32.png) [@Notchimine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notchimine)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/63 "2010-06-16T18:17:37Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > A much better solution is that waiters take it up with their employers. That’s what unions are for. Why would they want to? The waiters aren’t unhappy with the way things are. Only some of the customers. My husband has been a waiter all his life. He has worked his way up to fine dining and now makes a nice living. He is good at what he does and has many repeat customers who appreciate the fact that he can recommend a good wine or give a heads up as to what fish to avoid that evening. Of course he does get the occasional person who will want to know why he is worth an extra hundred dollars on top of the bill while the gal at dennys did the same thing and only got five. His typical response is “When the gal from dennys puts in her time to learn what I have and be as good as I am, she’ll be working right next to me for the same hundred bucks.” ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/64 "2010-06-16T18:34:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And as for bouncers; clubs and many bars actually have bouncers, whereas if you work in MaccyD’s and it all kicks off ( **as frequently happens, at least in my city** ), it’s up to the regular staff to control the situation. I’ve been in a lot of McDs, and I’ve never even seen the beginnings of a problem. Either I’ve lived in very nice places my whole life, or \*\*Mijn \*\*is from somewhere I’d rather not visit. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/65 "2010-06-16T19:04:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > I’m not arguing the general point about tipping. Not all, but many bartenders work much harder at higher skill levels than fast food workers, and they don’t get paid well. That’s all. I think paying people a proper wage is a better way to do it, but as pointed out in this thread, it’s hard to change the system. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/66 "2010-06-16T19:34:07Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > I’ve been in a lot of McDs, and I’ve never even seen the beginnings of a problem. Either I’ve lived in very nice places my whole life, or \*\*Mijn \*\*is from somewhere I’d rather not visit. London. Although I did overstate my case a little. While I have seen (serious) fights in McD’s, I haven’t seen one in a long while; generic fast-food places are more likely to see action now. But anyway, for my point, substitute “generic fast-food place” for “MaccyD’s”. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/67 "2010-06-16T20:13:37Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **InterestedObserver** said: > > Who determined “the going rate”, how was it determined, when was it determined? I recall when I was a kid the going rate was 10%, then it hit 15%. Now I’m regularly prompted for 18% and I know people who think 20% is the going rate. Why is the going rate creeping up? Why was good service due 10% at one time but now due more? Did good service get that much better? My personal rationale is that due to inflation, leaving a tip of less than $5 or so is rather an insult assuming the service was good (which means usually at least 3 well-timed visits to the table over the span of an hour and a half or so), so if my bill was $40 bucks, tipping 10% seems too low, so I usually up it to 15 or 20%. I mean, I figure they should at least be able to buy a gallon of gas or a pack of cigarettes. 😉 I think going by percentages is not always a good measure. I might have a bill of $20 for a meal, but leaving $2 is, imo, pretty crappy. So I will drop $5. I can afford it (if I couldn’t, I’d stay home and eat ramen:p) and it’s a nicer chunk o’ change that expresses my appreciation. Also, I’m hardly one to follow such trends, but I know I have seen the 15-20% min. guidline bandied about as the “going rate” (maybe based on the same sort of reasoning I use 😕) Someone else who had a waitress mom: 😉 AlTHOUGH, you may note he tipped less than 20%! [http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/access-hollywood-johnny-depp-tip.html](http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/access-hollywood-johnny-depp-tip.html) ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/68 "2010-06-16T20:23:16Z")
Oh, to correct MYSELF, Dur, of course, much higher than 20%…sorry…hey, I just finished a term (in which I made straight A’s, yay me!) so my brain is used up, lol. (plus, only one of those classes was math 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ToborAton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/57b2e6/32.png) [@ToborAton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToborAton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/69 "2010-06-17T03:25:22Z")
Anytime you find yourself wondering why you should tip then I would keep one thing in mind. If you weren’t tipping then you would get “customer service” levels of service instead of someone who can actually help! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/70 "2010-06-17T14:35:24Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Having been raised by a single mother who worked as a waitress for years and having waited tables myself at one time, I ALWAYS tip at least 20%. Most people who worked for tips in their lifetime are very generous with tips. My brother-in-law is a cheapskate but he always tips AT LEAST 20% and he insists I do the same whenever we go out together. He will quibble about a $7 beer he didn’t think he drank on a $400 bill and then leave a $100 tip. I’ve worked for tips and I understand that tips are important and while we can argue about how the restaurant industry should change its business model, punishing the wait staff is not the best way to do that (getting rid of tips minimum is probably a better way of doing that). But sometimes the expectation goes too far. I gave the example of the small party I threw at a restaurant. It was buffet style and two people worked for about 3 hours. They expected 18% for bringing in platters of food for the buffet and setting upa self serve bar. I gave them 10% (which i thought was a reasoanble rate for a buffet) and they made a fuss, I will never be going back there. > [@](#): > > Waiting tables IS difficult, demanding work. I’ve done it at weddings and while there were typically only 3 choices of apetizer, entree and dessert, I think I got a flavor of how tough it was and frankly its not much tougher than a lot of other jobs I have had. > [@](#): > > If you got less than stellar service, tip 15% (or perhaps consider that the fault might not have been with the server but the management for understaffing, the kitchen for being slow or screwing up your order I typically tip 15% no matter what but if you can’t keep my glass filled with wine during dinner then i don’t really care if you are short staffed that evening. That just means you will get smaller tips from more tables. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/71 "2010-06-17T14:40:10Z")
> [@ToborAton](#): > > Anytime you find yourself wondering why you should tip then I would keep one thing in mind. If you weren’t tipping then you would get “customer service” levels of service instead of someone who can actually help! Are you claiming that countries where they don’t tip (like Japan) have terrible customer service? Citation needed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/72 "2010-06-17T14:41:08Z")
> [@SeanArenas](#): > > I don’t think anyone has mentioned Japan. When I went to Japan in 1998, we were told that tipping is considered rude in Japan. I agree that tiping is not as prevalent but tipping is still expected at nicer restaurants. > [@](#): > > Apparently tipping is insulting. Apparently, not at the hotel restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/73 "2010-06-17T14:43:24Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’ve been a bartender, it was probably the most fun job I’ve ever had. Same here. > [@](#): > > I used to change kegs but plenty of staff didn’t, especially the hot girls that get a lot of the tips. Same here, we used to split tips and we would actively recruit the hottest girls we knew to tend bar. Actually they were more like cocktail waittresses behind the bar because they naver actually poured or mixed drinks, they would take orders, serve the drinks and collect the money. One guy (me) would line up the glasses and just pour drinks and you could get what was being poured right away or you could get the beer you wanted when there was a lull (and there was never a lull), mixed edrinks were expensive and the bartender was a showman who got laid every night. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/74 "2010-06-17T19:15:02Z")
If the waitress is behind the bar, then why couldn’t she get the beer while the bartender is flipping bottles? **TriPolar** said: > [@](#): > > I’m not arguing the general point about tipping. Not all, but many bartenders work much harder at higher skill levels than fast food workers, and they don’t get paid well. I won’t argue that bartenders don’t work hard, and I won’t argue either way about what pay they deserve for their work. But you were posting reasons why bartenders should be _tipped_ and fast food workers should not. Yet many of the reasons you posted were 1. the same for fast food workers as bartenders (i.e. cleaning up) 2. features of the job related to duties to the bar owner, not duties to the customers If the purpose is to justify the current model (tipping), then you need to address reasons why tipping is reasonable. If the purpose is to justify that bartenders deserve to be paid better, you are in the wrong thread. This discussion is about _tipping_. **Mijin** said: > [@](#): > > Although I did overstate my case a little. While I have seen (serious) fights in McD’s, I haven’t seen one in a long while; generic fast-food places are more likely to see action now. Can’t say I’ve ever seen fights in a fast food joints - mostly yuppie families. Whereas I’ve seen 2 fights and 1 near fight in bars. Bars involve alcohol and are more prone to fights breaking out because of that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/75 "2010-06-17T19:54:28Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Can’t say I’ve ever seen fights in a fast food joints - mostly yuppie families. Whereas I’ve seen 2 fights and 1 near fight in bars. Bars involve alcohol and are more prone to fights breaking out because of that. I was thinking more at night; people going from bars to fast food places. Those drunken yobs in the club aren’t about to learn maturity or sober up in the short walk to the chip shop. Certainly I’ve seen fights in such places; and they’re usually serious as there are no bouncers to break them up. Slightly separate point but where I grew up there was even a gang that was known for being associated with a fast food place – the Burger Bar Boys. Which may be a daft name, but many members of this gang are now serving time for murder. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/76 "2010-06-17T20:57:41Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I won’t argue that bartenders don’t work hard, and I won’t argue either way about what pay they deserve for their work. But you were posting reasons why bartenders should be _tipped_ and fast food workers should not. Yet many of the reasons you posted were Ok, I understand what you’re saying. To clarify, I wasn’t justifying this difference in terms of tipping, but highlighting the differences between the jobs, and why bartenders should get paid more. Bartenders get paid the lowest possible rate, sometimes nothing at all, and depend on the tips to make a living. Fast food workers must be paid at least minimum wage. You do seem to be relating a counter work at McDs to bartenders who manage a bar. That wouldn’t be a fair comparison, for the reasons I mentioned. When you take the example of cleaning, the fast food worker is usually being supervised, while the bartender has to take the responsibility himself. You have also given short shrift to the bartender’s legal responsibility for serving people of age, and not allowing patrons to drink too much. For that reason alone, bartenders should be paid a higher rate. I don’t justify that through tipping, but that’s how the system currently works. I haven’t seen a single suggestion for how that system could be changed. The problem I see in this thread is animosity towards the people being tipped. They are trapped in the system just like you and I. I also do not understand the problem people have with fixed rate tipping. It is just another way of setting the fixed price. If they are also being ‘asked’ to contribute additional money to the tip beyond the fixed rate, that’s the same problem as non-fixed tipping. (addendum: the bartending jobs cited in this thread sounded like high-end hotel bar jobs, where the bartenders have few responsibilies and aren’t much different from fast food workers) ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/77 "2010-06-18T09:18:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The problem I see in this thread is animosity towards the people being tipped. They are trapped in the system just like you and I. Part of it is general bad-feeling towards the system which gets translated to the people who work within the system. They’re the visible, tangible, servicing representatives of that system, who have an expectation of additional monetary compensation directly from the customer - as much as one’s head may say, “this person is as much a victim of this system as me,” the heart doesn’t always agree. A big part of the issue comes from growing number of people who expect tips. When the server at a counter merely moves a pre-packaged product from out of your reach to within your reach, why is there a tip jar on the counter? They are lumping themselves in with bartenders, waiters, food delivery people, etc. In a way, they are ruining it for the others. Another part is the growing amount of the tip size. Another part is the growing expectation that a (sizable) tip _must be given_, even when service is barely adequate. The expectation of tip frequency and tip size has grown, the social stigma for not tipping has grown, and the amount of work expected to earn that tip has decreased. Again, I point out that when I drive to In-N-Out Burger, I am greeted with the most pleasant employees who give me their full attention, never, ever, ever get an order wrong, and in general perform well above and beyond the call of duty for a fast food worker. No other chain compares. Yet they do not expect tips, and their prices are _better than_ other food chains in the area. Why do I go in to a Quizno’s or a Subway and see a tip jar? In those places, I receive surly service, poor quality food, and they get the orders wrong frequently. In addition, I get pressure from the manager to use alternate forms of payment, the Subways are hardly clean, and these places are often understaffed. So why do they charge more for their food, _and expect tips_? It used to be (I mean in the 70s and 80s) that a tip approaching 10% was given for good service, and 10%+ tip given for excellent service. Nowadays the expectation is for 18%+ for adequate service (as stated in a previous post on this thread, 18% expectation for setting up a buffet table, they got fussy when given 10%), and some people expect 20% and more for adequate service. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/78 "2010-06-18T10:55:08Z")
> [@Notchimine](#): > > Why would they want to? The waiters aren’t unhappy with the way things are. Good, then stop whingeing if you don’t get a tip. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/79 "2010-06-18T14:15:12Z")
Another facet of the tipping issue: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/37724939#37724939](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/37724939#37724939) ---
**Author:** ![street-pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@street-pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/street-pirate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/80 "2010-06-20T04:13:37Z")
Is bartending hard work? Sure it is. So is working in a factory, with the dirt, the noise, the heat and the danger. Factory workers, though, get paid about 14$ an hour for the same competency level. Here, in Quebec, a bartender in a busy bar makes 200$ in tips every night. Five nights a week means that they make 52 grand a year, on tips alone, plus 16 grand with their wages. A nurse makes 40 grand. A police officer makes 37. A teacher makes 36. Take into account that tips are mostly tax free, and wait staff make almost twice as much those last three, all positions that require considerably more skill and education, and that involve much more responsability and stress. And besides, it’s not like wait staff appreciate tips. They just consider that they deserve it. A barmaid once had my friends thrown out of a bar because they did not tip on ONE round, after they had tipped on every drink all night long. Does tipping means you get better service? No, it means wait staff can afford to treat you like shit because they make enough money to do without your business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466.md?page=5)