# Tipping makes no sense **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466 "2010-06-08T20:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ToborAton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/57b2e6/32.png) [@ToborAton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToborAton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/81 "2010-06-21T20:53:12Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Are you claiming that countries where they don’t tip (like Japan) have terrible customer service? Citation needed. I noticed you didn’t even think to offer a tip so I dug up a cite with a corresponding amount of effort: > **[RFC 2324: Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol (HTCPCP/1.0)](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2324)** > > This document describes HTCPCP, a protocol for controlling, monitoring, and diagnosing coffee pots. This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/82 "2010-06-27T17:46:16Z")
Personally, I am often disappointed by the level of service at restaurants and I try to use a hefty tip to reward good service on the rare occasions that I see it. Here’s a simple example. I order a sandwich with fries. Halfway through the meal, I run out of ketchup for the fries. But the waitress never comes by. At the end of the meal, she finally shows up and asks “was everything okay?”, at which point it’s **too late**. I had to eat half my fries with no ketchup. That’s what I call mediocre service. A good waitress should ask if you need anything while there’s still time to do something about it. When that happens, I tip 25% instead of 15%. I don’t wait tables; I’m a locksmith. My customers often tip me in situations where I quoted a fixed price for a job and it ended up being much more difficult than was expected. It’s their way of saying “I recognize your extra effort, so here’s some extra money.” Yesterday, I quoted $60 for a job that normally takes less than an hour. I ended up spending two hours to get it done right. The customer tipped me $20. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/83 "2010-06-27T22:22:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I recently had a party at a restaurant where the food was served buffet style and the drinks were also self serve. The wait staff asked why I only gave them a 10% tip. WTF. It was a buffet. You didn’t pour drinks, you didn’t serve food, you brought out food on platters and put them on platters and bussed the tables, then you have the nerve to compalin about the $500 tip for two people over three hours. While I consider myself an excellent tipper (I have had many friends in the service industry over the years) this would have me looking for a way to cancel the tip altogether (I assume it was put on a credit card)… Under the circumstances (I assume you have told it the way it actually happened) you were VERY generous, and for them to tell you that they felt that they were unhappy with your gratuity would have resulted in me calling up American Express in the parking lot of the restaurant (right in front of the servers) and telling them there had been a mistake made. As you pointed out, with no drinks involved, for a meal surved buffet style, you were exceedingly generous and for them to question you about the $500 you left them was beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/84 "2010-06-27T22:27:24Z")
> [@campp](#): > > I challenge anyone to try and wait tables professionally, and then come back and talk to us about tipping. I have done it, and I think it is a stupid idea. What else do you want to know? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/85 "2010-06-27T23:03:12Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > While I consider myself an excellent tipper (I have had many friends in the service industry over the years) this would have me looking for a way to cancel the tip altogether (I assume it was put on a credit card)… > > Under the circumstances (I assume you have told it the way it actually happened) you were VERY generous, and for them to tell you that they felt that they were unhappy with your gratuity would have resulted in me calling up American Express in the parking lot of the restaurant (right in front of the servers) and telling them there had been a mistake made. > > As you pointed out, with no drinks involved, for a meal surved buffet style, you were exceedingly generous and for them to question you about the $500 you left them was beyond the pale. Why the heck should anyone have the right to say anything about tipping, anyways? I thought it was supposed to be voluntary. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/86 "2010-06-27T23:29:48Z")
The reason we have animosity towards servers is that they don’t take the position that it’s an unfair system, but that’s all they have to work with. They take the position that they are somehow owed the tips. And that isn’t how tips work. A tip is me giving you a gift. It is not your earnings. And we have a longtime culture of not looking a gift horse in the mouth. I don’t have to give you extra money, so you do not have the right to get all sanctimonious about it. I’ve already covered the idea that bad tipping does not justify poor service, but I came up with another [del]metaphor[/del]simile while thinking of tip as a gift. It would be a like a child refusing to obey his parents because he didn’t get the Christmas gift he wanted. Your obligation to do your job is like the child’s obligation to obey his parents: completely independent of how well I’ve bribed you. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/87 "2010-06-28T12:17:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Your obligation to do your job is like the child’s obligation to obey his parents: completely independent of how well I’ve bribed you. But there is typically a difference between what the server is **obliged** to do and what the server has the option of doing in addition to his/her obligations, just as the fact that the child is obliged the obey his/her parents does not imply that the child is going to be angelic about obedience. ---
**Author:** ![KinkiNipponTourist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e9bcb4/32.png) [@KinkiNipponTourist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KinkiNipponTourist)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/88 "2010-06-28T13:24:22Z")
> [@SeanArenas](#): > > I don’t think anyone has mentioned Japan. When I went to Japan in 1998, we were told that tipping is considered rude in Japan. If you try to tip a service person (cab driver, waiter, bartender, delivery person) they are either a) confused at the extra money (as in, perhaps you misunderstood the amount to be paid, and they will repeat it), or b) consider it an insult. I regularly tip taxi drivers, usually because I’m running late and ask them to floor it–and they do. No one has refused or gotten insulted so far!😛 I don’t think folks get insulted anymore. > [@SeanArenas](#): > > Apparently tipping is insulting because it implies that you think that under other circumstances, they would have performed below their call of duty, but this time they performed above it. **Japanese employees all like to believe that they perform at the highest level of ability already** , they can’t perform at a higher level, therefore tipping is rude. bolding mine. Whoa! I can assure you that this is not the case. 😃 Service overall is still stellar here, but we’re seeing a rise in slack-jawed, bordering-on-rude customer service. But your point is valid in terms of motivating professional salespeople. Offering incentives to sell slow-moving product is almost guaranteed to piss off reps, for the reasoning you give here, and one mentioned throughout this thread: the idea that people are inherently lazy, or taking it easy, and can be motivated to get off their asses by dangling a bit o’ cash in front of them. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree that tiping is not as prevalent but tipping is still expected at nicer restaurants…Apparently, {tipping is not considered insulting} at the hotel restaurants. Really? I’ve never ever heard of this. Unless you’re talking about ryotei etc. where you are presented with a sum w/ no further details, and assume that tips are included there. But I have never heard of tipping at nicer restaurants or hotel restaurants. But I don’t assume my experience is the only valid one. Would you elaborate a little (if it’s not too OT)? Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/89 "2010-06-28T15:23:37Z")
I still see an unreasonable animosity towards the tippees when the they trapped in the system just as the tippers are. The fact that hardworking people in other industries don’t get tips isn’t the fault of waitstaff and barthenders. Some people may complain about the tips they get, but painting all servers with a broad brush isn’t fair either. On top of all that, it’s voluntary. When it isn’t, as in fixed percentage tipping, it’s a known part of the price. If all the animosity was directed at business owners and legislators who maintain this system, there might be some possibility of change. ---
**Author:** ![tokenman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@tokenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tokenman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/90 "2010-07-08T07:11:18Z")
> [@street-pirate](#): > > Here, in Quebec, a bartender in a busy bar makes 200$ in tips every night. Five nights a week means that they make 52 grand a year, on tips alone, plus 16 grand with their wages. A nurse makes 40 grand. A police officer makes 37. A teacher makes 36. Take into account that tips are mostly tax free, and wait staff make almost twice as much those last three, all positions that require considerably more skill and education, and that involve much more responsability and stress. This is nonsense! Like there are five Saturday nights in a week! 1-Most tip earners don’t work in the most expensive night club you can think of. 2-Tips are not tax free. Far from it. 3-The minimum wage for tip-earners is much lower than it is for non-skilled workers. 4-A good waiter is a rare commodity and will do things for you which fast-food employees will only curse at you for even suggesting. 5-Tipping is how I get served first, how my date gets served best, and how my seat at the crowded bar is saved for me while I go pee. Most excellent waiters don’t make $100 / day. Most large-breasted beer-slingers do, though. But I think that that speaks more to the patrons’ intelligence than the waiters’ qualifications. I put myself through school by waitering. If it was so easy and so well-remunerated, I would not have bothered with school. Waitering is an art. If you disagree, you try carrying five very hot plates through a crowd of impatient lunchers, while remembering the twenty other orders you have up, where it is all going, what order to do it all in, the daily changes made to the menu, people who want things on the side, re-filling the bread, the water, explaining the menu, dealing with kids, turning your tables, suggesting desserts, making sure the bill is correct, bussing, setting, all the while being scrutinized by a boss who’s not doing squat, getting stiffed on your bills, etc etc etc etc etc, all for a portion of minimum wage, and then being told by some ill-informed cheap-skate that he doesn’t believe in tipping because he appreciates all that you’ve done to get him out on time so he’s not late for work, but doesn’t want to give you an extra couple of bucks for your outstanding service which he couldn’t do for a week without curling up on the floor and crying for his mommy! And that’s when nothing goes wrong. I think there are a heck of a lot of people with very soft skin on their hands giving their meaningless opinions on this matter. I tip 15% for bad service because it’s usually not the waiters’ fault, 10% if it clearly is. I tip 20% for average service. I tip 25% for excellent service. I do this because I’ve been there. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/91 "2010-07-08T07:21:54Z")
> [@tokenman](#): > > I think there are a heck of a lot of people with very soft skin on their hands giving their meaningless opinions on this matter. There are also people (myself included) who _have_ worked in hospitality saying they disagree with tipping and explaining why. So yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/92 "2010-07-08T10:32:40Z")
> [@tokenman](#): > > Most excellent waiters don’t make $100 / day. Most large-breasted beer-slingers do, though. This suggests that the system is unfair, which was one half of my point in the OP (the other was that it slows down many transactions). > [@](#): > > I tip 15% for bad service because it’s usually not the waiters’ fault, _10% if it clearly is._ This doesn’t seem absurd to you? > [@](#): > > I think there are a heck of a lot of people with very soft skin on their hands giving their meaningless opinions on this matter. I’ve worked in hospitality too, didn’t seem that tough to me. In any case, your whole argument seems to be “waitering is tough”. So what? There are lots of tough jobs. I’m saying the system of tipping doesn’t work, and that waiters, bar staff etc should be paid an adequate base salary instead. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/93 "2010-07-08T12:43:54Z")
I have encountered a barman at Schiphol airport who refused to give me my change in my hand, claiming it was for “hygienic reasons”. Instead he wanted to put the money on a plate so I could pick it up (or leave it there for him, obviously). He didn’t like it when I called his bluff (he had no problems accepting money out of my dirty hand) and pocketed the change. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466/94 "2010-07-08T18:48:49Z")
> [@tokenman](#): > > If it was so easy and so well-remunerated, I would not have bothered with school. No one’s claiming waiters are overpaid. The problem is that the mechanism by which they are paid is inefficient, poorly understood, and all too often results either in waitstaff getting stiffed or customers getting annoyed. The other problem is former waitstaff who see any discussion of tipping and read every post that says “tipping is stupid” as “waitstaff don’t deserve tips”. Powers &8^] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tipping-makes-no-sense/542466.md?page=4)