# "Titan" submersible investigation begins \[28-June-2023\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 28, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242 "2023-06-28T16:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/301 "2023-08-30T17:51:35Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Well, I guess he “innovated” the shit out of his Titan, didn’t he? He’s not entirely wrong. But unfortunately for him, when a crewed submersible breaks, it’s not merely an inconvenience and delayed app rollout - people die. It’s basic risk/reward analysis that was failed. The cost of a buggy release is vastly different from the cost of lost lives. But hopefully that does lead to innovations and further refinements in safety regulations and in the use of carbon fiber in extreme environments Where he went wrong was in thinking he could (1) call that sort of innovation process in deep sea submersibles into existence by sheer force of will and (2) not be personally subject to physical harm from the process. The ocean does not care how much money you have. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/302 "2023-08-30T18:01:32Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I kind of wish he hadn’t died. Had to appreciate karmic payback when you’re dead. That’s generally my first reaction, but people like this will never understand that they did anything wrong, no matter how many people they kill. I doubt he would have suffered much. “Eh, that’s the cost of innovation!” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.E](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.e/32/8932_2.png) [@Mr.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.E)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/303 "2023-08-30T18:28:35Z")
Forcing people like that to face the consequences of their actions is like pulling teeth. Elizabeth Holmes will spend the rest of her life convinced that she was struck down moments from greatness despite her innovation being a total sham, and what’s worse is she will continue to convince other people of the same thing. If Stockton Rush wasn’t on that sub he would have followed the same path: Years of insisting he did nothing wrong, finally going to court and getting convicted, and never believing that he was a victim of people who resented him for innovating. Death was too good for him, but it’s still better justice than he would have got otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/304 "2023-09-02T13:50:34Z")
Agreed. I just listened to a podcast on John Landis, who got three people killed – two of whom were illegally-employed children – during the filming of the _Twilight Zone_ move. Blamed everything on underlings. Was found not guilty by the jury, career didn’t slow down at all, no evidence at all of “karma.” Sometimes the bastards just keep riding high. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/305 "2023-09-02T18:36:42Z")
Shout out to whoever recommended Susan Casey, somewhere way up above. I’ve just started _The Underworld_ about deep ocean exploration and it’s fascinating. ETA: Okay, that was @PastTense. Thanks again! ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/306 "2023-10-14T03:37:41Z")
> **[More presumed human remains recovered from imploded Titan submersible](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/presumed-human-remains-recovered-imploded-titan-submersible-rcna119867)** > > “Additional presumed human remains were carefully recovered from within Titan’s debris and transported for analysis by U.S. medical professionals,” the Coast Guard said Tuesday. The article includes this photo of the titanium endcap: [![](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-760w,f_auto,q_auto:eco,dpr_2.0/rockcms/2023-10/231011-us-coast-guard-titan-al-0801-4b99d3.jpg) ](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-760w,f_auto,q_auto:eco,dpr_2.0/rockcms/2023-10/231011-us-coast-guard-titan-al-0801-4b99d3.jpg) I am surprised that was not retrieved previously. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/307 "2023-10-14T12:06:58Z")
“Presumed human remains” is a euphemism for “human slurry” which then became “Purina crab chow”. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/308 "2023-10-14T16:53:19Z")
Those… reverse bibs with USCG are kind of curious. Are they part of a life vest the two coasties are presumably wearing while on the main deck? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/309 "2023-10-14T17:12:58Z")
That’s what it looks like to me. Here’s a pic showing front and back of a flotation vest that is not the same, but is similar enough I bet they’re different versions of the same idea: > **[Crewmen aboard the Coast Guard large patrol craft USCGC KISKA (WPB-1336)...](https://www.alamy.com/crewmen-aboard-the-coast-guard-large-patrol-craft-uscgc-kiska-wpb-1336-salute-as-the-colors-are-raised-following-their-arrival-at-the-atoll-during-operation-steel-box-the-kiska-is-in-place-to-provide-security-during-the-delivery-of-chemical-munitions-to-the-atoll-subject-operationseries-steel-box-country-johnston-atoll-image504327259.html)** > > Download this stock image: Crewmen aboard the Coast Guard large patrol craft USCGC KISKA (WPB-1336) salute as the colors are raised following their arrival at the atoll during Operation Steel Box. The KISKA is in place to provide security during the... ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/310 "2023-10-14T21:10:24Z")
Same color but they’re not looking cinched down to me like the ones in the stock photo. Also, putting a float on your back would make you tend to float face-down if you were incapacitated, not a good thing. There’s definitely something going over both their shoulders and presumably down their fronts. Maybe it’s an _If found please return to_ tag. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/311 "2023-10-14T21:26:04Z")
Agree they’re definitely not the same equipment in the _Titan_ recovery pic vs the _Kiska_ pic I cited. I was hoping to find a frontal pic of the exact same thing but was unsuccessful. I’m pretty sure the flap on the back is not flotation. Just a high visibility sign so they’re easy to spot on the deck and in the water. Exactly an “If found please return” tag. For the person / body wearing it, not for the equipment itself. Looking at what little we can see of the structure across the back of their necks it looks a lot thicker and stouter there than is the backflap. Suggesting the front part is also larger and heavier. Here’s a different picture of what’s probably the same gear but close up. Shame once again it’s a rear view only. Everything I could find a front or side view of was the bulkier full-coverage flotation gear. **[Coast Guard releases 2016 Recreational Boating Statistics report: Shows highest number of fatalities on record in the last five years - PassageMaker](https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler-news/2016-recreational-boating-statistics-report)** ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/312 "2023-10-14T22:30:36Z")
OK zooming in on the first pic, those look like a pull-over-the-head type and that back panel is simply that, a flat backflap from which then stretch down a strap that connects to a waist cinch (kind of like some of those in airliners) and yes, in the last, closer picture you can see that going around the back of the neck _is_ filled material. The full-vest ones in the second picture meanwhile look designed to be zipped/buckled in front. Thing is, the USCG probably has every type of authorized PFD in the inventory and will wear each depending on where and what is the mission. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/313 "2023-10-14T23:59:19Z")
Yeah. The crewfolks in the Titan shot were probably wearing the least capable, least annoying equipment they had given the nice day and flat water. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/314 "2023-10-15T00:06:57Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Also, putting a float on your back would make you tend to float face-down if you were incapacitated, not a good thing Not if there is a larger float on the front. Every life vest I’ve seen with a smaller float on the back has that float specifically to cause an unconscious person to float face up with their head still above water so there’s at least a theoretical possibility they won’t drown before someone can recover them. It’s also possible (though I kind of hope it’s not the case) that they are self-inflating life vests, which would explain why they don’t appear to have the bulk of a traditional life vest. I say “kind of hope it’s not” because such self-inflating life vests are notoriously unreliable. Or at least the kind they gave us in the Navy were. Inherently buoyant is the way to go IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/315 "2023-10-15T00:56:27Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I say “kind of hope it’s not” because such self-inflating life vests are notoriously unreliable. Or at least the kind they gave us in the Navy were. ![](https://media.tenor.com/eUDM5E3IDMYAAAAC/life-jacket-inflate.gif "Life Jacket GIF - Life Jacket Inflate Duck - Discover & Share GIFs") ---
**Author:** ![EnglishGrey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/englishgrey/32/14111_2.png) [@EnglishGrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnglishGrey)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/316 "2023-10-15T08:26:48Z")
Not sure how long ago your experience was, but these days self inflating life jackets are almost ubiquitous in commercial settings. By regulation we have to have them serviced annually, I’m not aware of reliability issues any more. Inherently buoyant PFDs (personal flotation devices) are now virtually limited to recreational pursuits like dinghy sailing, kayaking etc. This is based on my UK experience in the commercial sector, not military though. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/317 "2023-10-15T12:19:04Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I say “kind of hope it’s not” because such self-inflating life vests are notoriously unreliable. Or at least the kind they gave us in the Navy were. didn’t you have cute young ladies with fancy hand-gestures, stressing the mouthpiece in which you can blow in order to top up the air of your flotation device, in case of an unlikely emergency? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2023, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/318 "2023-10-15T13:35:16Z")
> [@EnglishGrey](#): > > Not sure how long ago your experience was I got out 4 years ago. But my last relevant experience was more like 8 years ago, and I have less than fond memories of inspecting the things (oh, and that time closer to 20 years ago when my boat capsized during launch, 4 out of 5 of us ended up in the water, and one person did in fact end up momentarily unconscious—his vest did not inflate, though fortunately he did not die). There were simply too many modes of failure for them, not least of which was their reliance on people to perform regular maintenance in order to ensure that all the components that needed to work properly to automatically inflate them were in good condition. Oh, and also, all those parts are susceptible to being damaged in the same event that leads to a person ending up in the water unconscious in the first place (for example, blunt force trauma). ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/319 "2023-10-23T19:30:03Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > this photo of the titanium endcap A slight tangent, but, seriously, you kind of have to admire what strong and tough stuff titanium is, no??? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/320 "2023-10-23T19:36:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I’m not sure how a SovCit would react to being in a British court with UK flags, wigs, and all the rest. Especially how it is not “the stand” but rather “the dock”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=17)