# "Titan" submersible investigation begins \[28-June-2023\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 28, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242 "2023-06-28T16:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/421 "2024-06-16T18:03:36Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Whether that will/would have stood up in court we may never know, since Rush is dead too. We may still find out. Although they have suspended all business OceanGate still technically exists and his wife was an executive in the business. While the “crew members” signed waivers, my understanding is that will not hold up if there was gross negligence and I think that can legally be argued with some chance of success. Lawsuits may still happen. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/422 "2024-06-16T19:25:56Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You focus on the ports of the countries nearest to the wreck, like the US, Canada, Ireland, the UK, and France. All that would accomplish is to move operations to some see-no-evil jurisdiction – a bit inconvenient because of the greater distance, but not really difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/423 "2024-06-16T20:06:20Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > While the “crew members” signed waivers, my understanding is that will not hold up if there was gross negligence and I think that can legally be argued with some chance of success. Lawsuits may still happen Heck, the gross negligence could be successfully argued by Alana Habba. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/424 "2024-06-16T22:42:35Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Although they have suspended all business OceanGate still technically exists and his wife was an executive in the business. While the “crew members” signed waivers, my understanding is that will not hold up if there was gross negligence and I think that can legally be argued with some chance of success. Lawsuits may still happen. But not if there aren’t any assets worth pursuing, right? Where are the deep pockets to justify the expense of a lawsuit? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/425 "2024-06-17T02:32:12Z")
“Deep Pockets”… Oh, that’s cold! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/426 "2024-06-17T04:59:13Z")
At various times, the publicity materials from OceanGate said that they were working with Boeing and NASA. If true, and contributory negligence can be shown, those are deep pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/427 "2024-06-17T05:22:37Z")
Boeing has denied any involvement whatsoever. Rush once claimed that he bought expired carbon fiber from Boeing (i.e., past the shelf life for what they’d use in an airplane) at a discount. Boeing denies any sale to OceanGate. If any aspect of that is true (one wonders), then Rush probably bought the expired CF from some third-party, and that’s what he was spinning into “working with Boeing.” ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/428 "2024-06-17T05:45:56Z")
I’ve got Goodyear tires on my car. That doesn’t mean that I’m “working with Goodyear”; it simply means that I bought the tires from a third party (a tire shop), which installed and balanced them. If Rush tried to play up “I’m working with Boeing” when all he did was to buy Boeing parts from a third party, the same way I bought my tires, then he really was selling something that wasn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/429 "2024-06-17T06:58:09Z")
Fair points, but that is what civil litigation can determine. I was responding to the question whether there were any deep pockets. General rule of civil lit is to name all possible defendants, for whom there is some possible link, and then use civil lit process to determine if there is potential liability. In Spoons’ example, Goodyear’s potential liability isn’t based on contract but on potential manufacturers liability for defective products. Is there a similar argument here about the source of the carbon laminate? Dunno. But that’s something that a plaintiff may wish to consider. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/430 "2024-06-17T13:42:46Z")
Sue 'em all. Let (the courtroom’s) god sort them out. Or something like that, but it sounds so much better (and more billable) rendered in Latin. Or so said my late wife the attorney. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/431 "2024-06-17T17:01:58Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > If Rush tried to play up “I’m working with Boeing” when all he did was to buy Boeing parts from a third party, the same way I bought my tires, then he really was selling something that wasn’t true. The recent Wired article shows that OceanGate hired two engineers that worked (and still do) at Boeing for some early design work. There was also the same out of the University of Washington. All of it was tossed aside because a concern for safety was built into the work. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/432 "2024-06-17T17:42:56Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > All of it was tossed aside because a concern for safety was built into the work. Well, sure - that just slows things down and costs more. Can’t be agile if obstructionists in engineering are whining about “safety” all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/433 "2024-06-17T17:54:07Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > The recent Wired article shows that OceanGate hired two engineers that worked (and still do) at Boeing for some early design work. No worries, Boeing engineers are used to being ignored by management. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/434 "2024-06-18T13:20:29Z")
It was a year ago today that the Titan submersible imploded. 18 Jun 2023. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/435 "2024-08-08T16:26:12Z")
The first lawsuit has been filed, by the estate of Paul-Henri Nargeolet. Seeking $50 million in damages. > **[Estate of French explorer who died in Titan submersible sues OceanGate](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/estate-french-explorer-died-titan-submersible-sues-oceangate-rcna165661)** > > The lawsuit alleges the five on board the submersible that was trying to reach the wreckage of the Titanic would have been aware that the sub was about to implode. > It argues Rush used carbon fiber for the craft’s hull, a material not previously used in submersibles; that he refused certification that could have provided the outside expertise that could have prevented the tragedy; and that those aboard most likely would have known they were about to die. The article says they’re suing OceanGate, the estate of Stockton Rush, and other companies. I’m assuming Boeing is not listed in the suit, since they certainly would have been called out by name in the article if they were. ---
**Author:** ![Lancia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lancia/32/17174_2.png) [@Lancia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lancia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/436 "2024-08-08T16:37:33Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Rush used carbon fiber for the craft’s hull, a material not previously used in submersibles; that he refused certification that could have provided the outside expertise that could have prevented the tragedy All of this was public knowledge before the Titan imploded (ref: the _Unsung Science_ podcast episode released 8 months before the sub went squish). I’m wondering why it took so long for the first lawsuit to be filed. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/437 "2024-08-08T17:01:49Z")
> [@Lancia](#): > > I’m wondering why it took so long for the first lawsuit to be filed. Paperwork. It takes a lot of paperwork to justify $50M. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/438 "2024-08-08T17:25:05Z")
Probably also waiting for the various insurance companies to officially deny stuff so there’s a context for the litigation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/439 "2024-08-08T18:28:21Z")
Plus, researching the jurisdiction and the applicable law. Where is the best place to sue, for a case that has aspects of maritime law, negligence law, and insurance law? I’ve seen complex cases where the claim is only filed a week or so before the filing deadline, because plaintiffs’ counsel are carefully researching the legal framework they are going to rely on, and want to be sure about jurisdiction and legal issues, so their claim properly advances the best case possible. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/440 "2024-08-09T13:24:58Z")
> [@Lancia](#): > > All of this was public knowledge before the Titan imploded… Yes but if nothing happened yet, who would have standing to bring a suit? The first thing a judge would ask is “how was the plaintiff harmed by the defendant?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=23)