# "Titan" submersible investigation begins \[28-June-2023\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 28, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242 "2023-06-28T16:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/41 "2023-06-30T17:08:30Z")
“Least I Could Do” weighs in. > **[20230630 - Least I Could Do](https://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20230630)** > > Win Stupid Prizes ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/42 "2023-06-30T17:16:30Z")
From the BBC: > Chief investigator Cpt Jason Neubauer said its priority would be recovering debris, and precautions would be taken in case human remains are found. > > Speaking on Sunday, he also said the investigation would be able to recommend civil or criminal charges. > > Cpt Neubauer told reporters in Boston that the US Coast Guard had convened its highest level of investigation. > > He said it would would try to establish what caused the disaster, and make recommendations to prevent future tragedies. He added that it would be run jointly with Canadian, UK and French authorities. > > ~ > > He said the investigation could lead to tougher regulations and safety recommendations for submersibles, but could not confirm how long it would take to complete. > > Once all evidence has been collected, Cpt Neubauer said investigators would likely hold a formal hearing to get witness testimony. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/43 "2023-06-30T17:19:44Z")
And that’s the point of the investigation. This shady operation worked in the gaps in jurisdiction and regulation. If the governments involved want to close those loopholes, they need to understand them. And technological elements are very often the subject of regulatory standards, which explains the desire to gather technical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/44 "2023-06-30T17:19:52Z")
> Speaking on Sunday, he also said the investigation would be able to recommend civil or criminal charges. Criminal charges against whom? Stockton Rush? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/45 "2023-06-30T17:20:19Z")
Companies can be charged criminally. For a really shallow “I am not a lawyer” hypothetical, for instance, their operations based out of Canadian jurisdiction could expose them to liability to Corporate Manslaughter for the deaths of the customers and employees: > **[Corporate manslaughter | Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_manslaughter#Canada)** > > In Canada, Bill C-45 was enacted as a response to the Westray Mine explosion that killed twenty-six miners in 1992. The Bill added a new section to the Canadian Criminal Code ("217.1 Every one who undertakes, or has the authority, to direct how another person does work or performs a task is under a legal duty to take reasonable steps to prevent bodily harm to that person, or any other person, arising from that work or task.") and adds sections 22.1 and 22.2 to the Criminal Code to impose criminal... ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/46 "2023-06-30T17:28:07Z")
" _Rush told vlogger Alan Estrada in 2021. “I’ve broken some rules to make this. I think I’ve broken them with logic and good engineering behind me. The carbon fibre and titanium, there’s a rule you don’t do that. Well, I did.”_" That’s just sad. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/47 "2023-06-30T17:30:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Titan was a unique ship. So there’s no need to determine if it had flaws that might cause the destruction of similar vessels. Unless someone wants to build a similar vessel in the future, at which point we’ll be glad we learned as much as we could from this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/48 "2023-06-30T17:40:54Z")
Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/49 "2023-06-30T17:50:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m wondering about some of the broader issues this investigation is raising. What’s the purpose of this investigation? The general principle at work? When a bunch of billionaires die all at once, you should probably check to make sure it was really an accident. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/50 "2023-06-30T17:52:06Z")
And if it can be replicated. ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/51 "2023-06-30T18:54:41Z")
😁 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/52 "2023-06-30T21:18:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Criminal charges against whom? Stockton Rush? I’m not happy when anyone dies, but I find myself wishing this guy were still alive _just so he could face the consequences_ of his hubris. I mean, he never had to face the fact that he was wrong. And the other employees I’m sure now have plausible deniability. More corporate people getting away with corporate bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/53 "2023-06-30T21:38:43Z")
Moderating: > [@silenus](#): > > And if it can be replicated. Reminder: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But if y’all could keep statements about how rich people deserve to die in a pit thread (start one if there’s not already one) the mods would appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/54 "2023-06-30T22:12:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Titan was a unique ship. So there’s no need to determine if it had flaws that might cause the destruction of similar vessels. > > Is it a matter of adding to the general database of engineering and material science? It was a unique vessel. But that doesn’t mean there won’t be others made with similar techniques or similar materials. So the investigation will (I hope) determine the point of failure, and thus prevent others from making the same mistake. There’s a saying in aviation that ‘The Federal Aviation Regulations are written in blood.’ That is, when something goes wrong, and it’s determined what went wrong, a new regulation may be written to prevent the accident from happening again. But then there will be other accidents and other investigations. So the regulations are written incrementally, accident by accident. As you say, _Titan_ was unique. There has to be a first accident sometime to begin making submersibles safer. And of course, this does add to the general database. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/55 "2023-06-30T22:45:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > it made three previous trips down and got everyone back alive those times… > > That just screams one of two things to me: > > 1. Structural fatigue, or > 2. Negligence in preparing the vessel for this trip. At least thirteen previous trips since 2021, per wikipedia. That was after the hull had already been replaced/repaired 2020-2021 after observed fatigue damage from the 2018-2020 dive testing. My understanding is that you cannot precisely test for/chart fatigue damage for composites like this (one of its largest flaws), but I find the timing rather suggestive. Test 2018-2020 - observable fatigue damage requiring repair. Run commercial dives 2021-2023 - kaboom. That alone might score on the legal negligence meter. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/56 "2023-06-30T23:46:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m not happy when anyone dies, but I find myself wishing this guy were still alive _just so he could face the consequences_ of his hubris. I mean, he never had to face the fact that he was wrong. And the other employees I’m sure now have plausible deniability. More corporate people getting away with corporate bullshit. I feel that he did face the consequences. Death feels like a pretty severe consequence. And it sounds like he even had a moment between hearing a crack and the kapow. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/57 "2023-07-01T00:19:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > There’s a saying in aviation that ‘The Federal Aviation Regulations are written in blood.’ That can be said of many regulatory regimes, and for the same good reasons. When things go horribly wrong and people are maimed or killed, whether in the air, on the sea, in a factory, on a road crew, etc., if nothing is done to find out why it happened and put in place regulations to try to stop it from happening again, it WILL happen again, even when the circumstances aren’t entirely the same. So having the Titan disaster investigated is definitely a good thing, and worth all the resources being devoted to it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/58 "2023-07-01T03:21:09Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Once all evidence has been collected, Cpt Neubauer said investigators would likely hold a formal hearing to get witness testimony. I have a feeling the pool of available witnesses is going to be on the thin side. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/59 "2023-07-01T03:24:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > > > Once all evidence has been collected, Cpt Neubauer said investigators would likely hold a formal hearing to get witness testimony. > > I have a feeling the pool of available witnesses is going to be on the thin side. - And they’ll likely be pressed for time. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/60 "2023-07-01T05:24:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > …pressed for time. Only briefly. But they’re too dispersed to testify. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=4)