# "Titan" submersible investigation begins \[28-June-2023\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 28, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242 "2023-06-28T16:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/81 "2023-07-01T17:43:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If we’re to assume that information came from the support ship then they knew from the start it had imploded and waited until the scheduled return time to alert authorities. I heard a quote from the wife that suggests that’s true. They contacted her when they lost contact with the sub, and she started mourning then. (Maybe an NPR interview?) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/82 "2023-07-01T17:56:11Z")
The question of blatant recklessness now seems so clear that this aspect of potential lawsuits seems straightforward. Unfortunately, along with arrogant recklessness Rush was also pretty good about avoiding regulatory oversight. The “Titan” was apparently registered in the Bahamas, operated only in international waters, for reasons of liability the paying passengers were classed as crew rather than passengers (“mission specialists” in the terminology of OceanGate, and their tickets considered “research contributions”) and they did sign waivers which I’m sure Rush laughed off as silly legalistic mumbo-jumbo. So I’m not sure how easy it will be to sue OceanGate, or if there’s much there in the way of assets. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/83 "2023-07-01T18:18:46Z")
IANAL but I believe the laws in the US don’t recognize liability waivers in the event of gross negligence. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/84 "2023-07-01T18:26:59Z")
IANAL either, but I believe that’s true, and I even mentioned it before. I’m just listing all the devious ways that Rush tried to avoid the jurisdiction of regulatory agencies and potentially of liability claims. The fact that Rush did operate in the US, and that his venture was deemed by experts to be so dangerous that serious efforts were even made to try to get the US government to shut him down is all very damning. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/85 "2023-07-01T18:28:46Z")
Rush is dead. I dunno if the company has assets, but i gather it wasn’t a money-maker. It might be hard to sue. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/86 "2023-07-01T18:50:34Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > …devious ways that Rush tried to avoid the jurisdiction of regulatory agencies and potentially of liability claims. I don’t know how true that is. My understanding was that there are no regulations governing such deep sea submersibles. Regardless, I seem to recall reading that Ocean Gate itself is incorporated in the US state of Washington and I have at least inferred that Rush was a citizen of the US. So seems like jurisdiction is pretty clear cut. It’s only a question of whether and to what extent liability waivers may be effective under such circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/87 "2023-07-01T18:55:26Z")
They have another submersible as well as a support ship. They might not have an equity to speak off. I found it telling that Rush was basically flying around the country trying to sell tickets to the show. It makes it sound like they needed the money. Maybe waiting 8 hrs each way with no bathroom in order to look through a tiny window at a shipwreck in murky water isn’t as appealing as one would think. I’d certainly give up a week’s salary NOT to take that trip. There’s not enough lipstick on the planet for that pig of a vacation. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/88 "2023-07-01T21:30:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In this case the energy from the initial implosion will be transmitted “somewhere”. if the pressure wave starts in the middle it will travel along the walls of the sub to until it hits the end-caps. Ok, I wasn’t clear what I was responding to. Yeah, the hammer of water on collapse could very well have shattered the porthole. I was taking exception to your suggestion that the occupants were extruded through the window. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/89 "2023-07-01T22:49:21Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > for reasons of liability the paying passengers were classed as crew rather than passengers (“mission specialists” in the terminology of OceanGate, and their tickets considered “research contributions”) and Courts are good at seeing through nonsense like that. A 19 year old kid whose main interest was setting a Rubik cube record was a “mission specialist”? What did he and his father bring by way of expertise, other than half a million dollars? There will be issues in the waiver clause and contract. There will likely be a choice of law clause, and a venue clause for court cases, but there’s also the fact that they were on a Canadian ship, and departed from a Canadian port. Admiralty law is not my gig, but there are lots of issues there, I would think. Plus, how specific was the waiver clause? As Lord Denning said in one of his judgments, some waivers are so extreme that the contract should be printed with a big red hand pointing at the suspect clause. If a court concludes that a waiver did not provide full disclosure, especially in the context of no regulatory approval and other experts saying it was an accident waiting to happen, fundamentally unsafe by design, courts might be willing to set aside the waiver, as not providing full disclosure. There’s also the _contra proferentum_ principle. If a contract is drafted entirely by one party, uses as a standard contract, and is a “take it or leave it” for the other party, any ambiguity in the contract will be construed against the party which drafted. If that’s what happened here, with Ocean Gate drafting the contract, then that also gives an opportunity for the heirs of our he “mission specialists” to challenge the waiver clause. And these heirs have money and a sense of getting their own way. Put that against the info that is coming out about the recklessness, and Rush’s heirs might not be getting any inheritance. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/90 "2023-07-01T22:56:02Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > The Behind the Bastards podcast did a recent two-parter on Stockton Rush and the history of issues with the Titan. Well worth a listen. Wow, that’s almost three hours for both of them. Is there a transcript I can read instead? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/91 "2023-07-01T23:08:14Z")
Huh. Turns out Calvin’s Dad was on to something: > Ramsay grabbed a copy of Stachiw’s acrylic handbook from his spare bedroom. **When Stachiw’s team was doing its tests, “they would pressurize it really fast, the acrylic would implode, and then they would assign a conversion factor, to tabulate a safe diving depth,”** he explained. “So let’s say the sample imploded at twelve hundred metres. You apply a conversion factor of six, and you get a rating of two hundred metres.” He paused, and spoke slowly, to make sure I understood the gravity of what followed. “It’s specifically _not_ called a safety factor, because the acrylic is _not safe_ to twelve hundred metres,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/92 "2023-07-01T23:14:36Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > So I’m not sure how easy it will be to sue OceanGate, or if there’s much there in the way of assets. I’d take one of them titanium end caps. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/93 "2023-07-01T23:15:21Z")
Hmm. Just noticed something else from the _New Yorker_ article. Rush incorporated his holding company in the Bahamas, and registered _Titan_ in the Bahamas. If that’s also where the venue clause is set, the Bahamian courts may have jurisdiction over civil actions by the heirs of the deceased. Appeals lie from the Bahamian courts to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, in Britain. That is, to the UK Supreme Court judges sitting in their capacity as members of the JCPC. If that’s correct (and just speculation on my part), this case could end up before one of the most sophisticated courts in the common law world, with ample experience in admiralty law. > **[Judicial Committee of the Privy Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Committee_of_the_Privy_Council)** > > The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council (JCPC) is the highest court of appeal for the Crown Dependencies, the British Overseas Territories, some Commonwealth countries and a few institutions in the United Kingdom. Established on 14 August 1833 to hear appeals formerly heard by the King-in-Council, the Privy Council formerly acted as the court of last resort for the entire British Empire, other than for the United Kingdom itself. > Formally a statutory committee of His Majesty's Most Honoura... ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/94 "2023-07-01T23:18:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Rush’s heirs might not be getting any inheritance His wife is a company executive. They’re likely getting wiped out. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/95 "2023-07-01T23:20:59Z")
Is she an exec with Ocean Gate? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/96 "2023-07-01T23:23:48Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Is she an exec with Ocean Gate? Yep. Wendy Rush, Director of Communications. They have two kids as well. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/97 "2023-07-01T23:27:08Z")
Yep, her stock options are likely worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/98 "2023-07-01T23:47:21Z")
So I checked Rush’s wikipedia article and found this bit about his wife: > Wendy Weil Rush is a great-great-granddaughter of [Isidor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidor_Straus) and [Ida Blun Straus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Straus), both of whom died in the [sinking of the _Titanic_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Titanic), through their daughter Minnie Straus Weil. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/99 "2023-07-02T00:01:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I have a feeling the pool of available witnesses is going to be on the thin side. when pressured, you really hammer home your hard facts > [@Magiver](#): > > I found it telling that Rush was basically flying around the country trying to sell tickets to the show. It makes it sound like they needed the money. Maybe waiting 8 hrs each way with no bathroom in order to look through a tiny window at a shipwreck in murky water isn’t as appealing as one would think. let me add the fact that you are “bolted” into a very reduced space, with no way out (even on land) … for me that is nightmare-material … so, no Al128-money either > [@Gatopescado](#): > > I’d take one of them titanium end caps. if given the choice, the less greasy one for me, please … ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/100 "2023-07-02T00:23:42Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > let me add the fact that you are “bolted” into a very reduced space, with no way out (even on land) … for me that is nightmare-material … I’m claustrophobic. Just looking into the sub might trigger some kind of panic attack thinking about being sealed in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=6)