# "Titan" submersible investigation begins \[28-June-2023\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 28, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242 "2023-06-28T16:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/121 "2023-07-03T13:18:28Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > If you are somehow getting away with paying a 19-yr old $15/hr to be an “engineer” and still desperately scrabbling for funds, you are likely not in the greatest of financial shape. He was purportedly worth at least several million, but one wonders how much of that was just ownership of expensive machinery. Sometimes _not paying people properly_ can be part of the whole reason for _getting rich_ ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/122 "2023-07-03T13:31:39Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Another value of suing the whiz-kids is to be able to examine them about Rush’s construction practices. Their testimony could help show just how badly he wasn’t interested in safety. I’m not so sure Rush was not interested in safety, but rather bought his own bullshit about how “smart” and “innovative” he was. He seemed to have thought he knew everything, and so didn’t have to listen to “the experts.” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/123 "2023-07-03T13:41:17Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > you can see the effect in this video from the Hydraulic press channel - the chamber implodes, the water sort of bounces in and out several times (and in this case, even though the side wall imploded, the end caps are driven apart forcefully by the rebound). That’s not exactly what we see in the video though. If the caps were affected by the rebound implosion, then their motion would be roughly in sync with it, but it isn’t. There are several rebound pulses that don’t seem to affect the caps at all. What what we actually see is that the front of the chamber fails earlier than the back of the chamber. This creates an asymmetric force on it, causing the front to buckle and shorten, creating torque on the endcaps, so they go spinning off radially toward the camera rather than axially. They’ve already started to spin away before the first rebound pulse even starts. This would be better evident if the chamber were larger and/or we had a shot from a perpendicular axis, but the main tipoff is that the endcaps both rotate very distinctly in the same way in the same direction, and don’t follow the motion of the rebound pulses. ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/124 "2023-07-03T13:45:35Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > the end caps are driven apart forcefully by the rebound I’m not seeing that … looks to me more like they just drop off. ETA:, iow, what he said ^ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/125 "2023-07-03T13:49:29Z")
Try 5:03 in the video - you can see a jet coming out of one end. The point is though that the water doesn’t just go in and stop, it rebounds. Whatever else happens in a catastrophic implosion, it’s not all forces that go exclusively inwards. The caps in this model are comparatively massive for the rest of the setup, because the objective was to test the carbon fibre part - they do move apart, although it’s not very clear how much (you have to sort of figure out what’s happening to their centres of mass) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/126 "2023-07-03T14:03:19Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > I’m not so sure Rush was not interested in safety, but rather bought his own bullshit about how “smart” and “innovative” he was. That’s kinda the same thing. A safety mentality isn’t “I want people to be safe.” It’s a willingness to accept cost, in terms of money and time and effort (and ego) to identify and mitigate hazards. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/127 "2023-07-03T14:07:44Z")
I see where you’re coming from, and I fully agree with you. I suppose I should have said something more like that Rush _thought_ he had a safety mentality, but rather had a “I’m smarter than everyone else and therefore always right” mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/128 "2023-07-03T14:39:53Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > He seemed to have thought he knew everything, and so didn’t have to listen to “the experts.” Dunning–Kruger effect? I know that DK often seems to refer to people with low intelligence who think they know more than experts; but can it also apply to very intelligent people who over-estimate their knowledge in a field they do have some experience in? Like, ‘I built a composite aircraft. Carbon fibre is stronger than glass. Therefore, my submersible will be strong enough to withstand the pressure. It is known that impending failures can be detected by sensors. I have installed the sensors. Therefore, my submersible is safe.’ ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/129 "2023-07-03T14:48:27Z")
I read the New Yorker article and I found it devastating. You apparently had everyone in a fairly small industry aware of the possibility of catastrophic failure but limited in how aggressively they could complain by the fact that they were technically in competition. Nargeolet is in many ways interesting. He was warned but in the article appears to be depressed over his wife’s death and almost resigned to the possibility of death. That said, the competitors may have ulterior motives in describing how much they knew and how aggressive they were in reporting. I do wonder how McCallum knew all of the details so early. Someone on the support ship had to have been in contact with him for him to know all of the details do early. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/130 "2023-07-03T16:55:47Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Rush _thought_ he had a safety mentality, but rather had a “I’m smarter than everyone else and therefore always right” mentality. In recent years L.S.D. has become fashionable again amongst a certain set, maybe he was on that train ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/131 "2023-07-03T17:16:16Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > Nargeolet is in many ways interesting. He was warned but in the article appears to be depressed over his wife’s death and almost resigned to the possibility of death There are worse ways to die than being instantaneously pulped; maybe that’s what he was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/132 "2023-07-03T17:20:58Z")
But if he honestly thought that was an option, then he was collaborating with Rush in the death of three innocents. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/133 "2023-07-03T17:22:31Z")
However, since the latest version of events is that they were in the process of making an emergency ascent, there was apparently time enough to be seriously worried, if nothing else. Rush was convinced that both the carbon fiber hull and the acrylic window would give ample warning of impending failure in plenty of time for a safe return to the surface. It doesn’t appear that any of the other experts gave this theory any credence. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But if he honestly thought that was an option, then he was collaborating with Rush in the death of three innocents.   I don’t think he seriously thought there was a high chance of disaster. He was simply saying he was old and didn’t much value his own life. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2023, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/134 "2023-07-04T02:21:36Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > I’m not so sure Rush was not interested in safety, but rather bought his own bullshit about how “smart” and “innovative” he was. He seemed to have thought he knew everything, and so didn’t have to listen to “the experts.” yep … just like twitter - (but dying in 15 miliseconds instead of 15 months) > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > There are worse ways to die than being instantaneously pulped; maybe that’s what he was thinking. unless of course you run into a problem and are a sitting duck at 3.000m depth - and during 15 min. -hearing ever more crunching sounds in a 5m tube where you were bolted into two hours earlier .. that sounds just terrible … (I assume also, any structural noises being hellishly loud as you sitting basically inside a drum) if it came as a complete surprise, I agree ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2023, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/135 "2023-07-04T02:31:55Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > unless of course you run into a problem and are a sitting duck at 3.000m depth - **and during 15 min.** -hearing ever more crunching sounds in a 5m tube where you were bolted into two hours earlier … that sounds just terrible … - If that’s the case, I hope the others made his last moments a living hell. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/136 "2023-07-05T03:35:12Z")
If the mating surface between the titanium ends and the carbon fiber started to leak the pressure would have carved out the glue like a blow torch and cascaded quickly. There would be evidence of that process. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/137 "2023-07-05T11:39:27Z")
I don’t know if it would have mattered at those enormous pressures but it seems strange that that the titanium end rings were not clamped together through long bolts that ran the length of the pressure vessel. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/138 "2023-07-05T12:59:18Z")
Wouldn’t have mattered. at 6,000 psi on a hull with an OD of 66", the ocean is already cramming those two end caps toward each other with 20.5 million pounds of force. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/139 "2023-07-05T15:22:09Z")
One of the photos identifies a rather large piece of cladding. Is it weird that cladding, which is not structural, would survive an implosion? Did the actual body of the sub collapse so fast that there was no pressure on the cladding? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242/140 "2023-07-05T16:07:03Z")
That’s the cladding from the instrument cluster at the tail end - that part of the vessel wasn’t pressurised (and presumably would have been somewhat protected from the effects of the implosion as it’s on the other side of the hemispherical titanium end cap [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titan-submersible-investigation-begins-28-june-2023/986242.md?page=8)