# Titanic tourist submarine missing 6-19-2023 (Debris field found, passengers presumed dead. 06-22-23) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 19, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781 "2023-06-19T16:29:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/321 "2023-06-21T23:45:24Z")
Family may want the sub. recovered for an investigation more than burial. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2023, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/322 "2023-06-21T23:56:08Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Family may want the sub. recovered for an investigation more than burial. - They have money. They can pay for a private salvage operation if they want. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2023, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/323 "2023-06-21T23:57:47Z")
(Reply to susan) I hear ya. But at what cost? And I don’t mean money. The bottom of the ocean. It’s a big thing to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/324 "2023-06-22T00:04:49Z")
By my math, they’ve got about 5 hours of oxygen left at this point. Seeing as the sub would have to be lifted to the surface to open it, I don’t see any way that they can be got to in time. This is now a salvage operation. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/325 "2023-06-22T00:05:20Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > At T+1:45:00, when contact was lost, they would have been about halfway through descent (probably around 5000’). If the ballast was dropped right then, it would have taken a couple hours to surface. What is the gulf stream current flow rate – how far would they have been carried on the way up, and how much farther would they have been carried on the surface since then? > > (I assume S&R has done these estimates.) I had a similar thought. But if they lost propulsion and somehow ended up more or less neutral buoyancy they could be drifting around somewhere in the water column. Wherein it might take days (weeks?) for the sub to either settle on the bottom or arrive at the surface. And during the entire time it’s somewhere in the water column vertically it’s also drifting horizontally. I don’t know how dynamically stable neutral buoyancy in water is. IOW, if they drift up a bit is there a natural restorative force down, or a runaway imbalance that drives them inexorably towards the surface? Military submarines of course have powerful active sonars for detecting silent underwater stuff. But given the comparatively shallow depth limits even on modern subs, how much can they point their active sonar downwards to scan the deep, deep, deep ocean where _Titan_ might be drifting? It could be a real life _Flying Dutchman_ wandering in the middle of the water for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/326 "2023-06-22T00:13:15Z")
Look, I don’t care what they do. I’m naming an alternate explanation for why a family might want it retrieved an response ro discussion about burial. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/327 "2023-06-22T00:13:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > By my math, they’ve got about 5 hours of oxygen left at this point. Looks bad, but people vary in how much oxygen they consume. In past situations, I think the oxygen sometimes/usually lasted longer than rated. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/328 "2023-06-22T00:15:11Z")
OK, that’s cool. I refer you, then, to running coach’s response. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/329 "2023-06-22T00:22:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The cost of the search operation should be charged to the guy who made the decisions to cut corners on safety – and that cost is considerable, involving ships and aircraft and other resources from at least three countries. Agreed, except I think the rules needed to be in place in advance. The U.S. Coast Guard, by law, does not charge for rescues. But some U.S. states have rescue services that charge. I think the law should change to charge for rescues. But I have a hard time seeing a charge for failed rescues. And I think the rule making needs to focus on common rescue scenarios, not the very rare super high publicity rescues like this. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/330 "2023-06-22T00:34:12Z")
And if they were alive for a while after the failure, it’s likely they wrote some stuff down. They may have provided details on what failed, which would be of value to the investigators. Or they may have written personal notes to family members, which would be of obvious importance to them. If that happened, preserving these messages assumes (of course) the sub didn’t implode sometime later, and that it can be retrieved intact. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/331 "2023-06-22T00:50:54Z")
[Here is a link](https://sarahparcak.substack.com/p/on-high-risk-exploration?utm_source=substack&publication_id=1601434&post_id=115922726&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&triggerShare=true&isFreemail=true) to an in-depth consideration of explorers and risk-taking by Sarah Parcak, one of the pioneers in using space technology. I launches off the current crisis but goes much deeper and farther into the broad topic of risk-taking. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/332 "2023-06-22T00:51:22Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Still, I remember when “NASA stands for Need Another Seven Astronauts” after the Challenger explosion. Why does NASA buy Coca-Cola? They can’t get 7UP. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/333 "2023-06-22T01:24:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It strikes me that the CEO of OceanGate did something similar, except he did bring **passengers** along. You misspelled “Mission Specialists”. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/334 "2023-06-22T02:52:12Z")
> [@ZonexandScout](#): > > Can I make a carbon dioxide scrubber? Carbon dioxide was an issue that occurred to me just a little while ago. It’s something that hasn’t been mentioned in the media, or anywhere upthread (except for your post) as far as I can tell. On Apollo 13, it was understood that carbon dioxide build up was going to be a fatal problem long before they ran out of oxygen. Wouldn’t that be an issue in this sub as well? If the thing is only outfitted for a mission of 8 hours, would they even have bothered including a CO2 scrubber in the design? Would CO2 build up be a fatal problem in less than 4 days, especially considering the volume of that sub is so small? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/335 "2023-06-22T02:52:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The article you linked to does say it was an “external”’ window that broke, and that the hull never lost integrity. Which I assume means that the window was layered, and the underlying layers held? But once you’ve got water entering the vessel, I don’t think it’s going to hold together for more than a millisecond before it crumples. It doesn’t have to crumple. the water could fill the vessel under pressure. If it’s hauled up then the pressure from inside comes back out. I can’t find it but there’s a video of an early deep sea sphere that this happened to. When they opened it up the door shot off. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/336 "2023-06-22T03:32:02Z")
Doh! That was a stupid thing for me to write. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/337 "2023-06-22T04:04:09Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > It could be the basis of a ruinous lawsuit against whatever is left of OceanGate by the surviving relatives. > > Unlikely, since you can be sure they all signed an “at your own risk” paper before they set off. But was there full disclosure of the risk? For example, did the waiver papers say that the viewing window was only rated for 1,300 metres depth, but that _Titanic_ was at 3,800 metres? Did the waiver papers say that _Titan_ had not been submitted for safety reviews, the only one in the small group of submersibles designed to go to _Titanic_ that had not been reviewed? If there was full disclosure of those sorts of facts, then maybe the waivers would stand. But if the waivers only spoke of “experimental submersible”, without revealing details like the depth rating of the view port, they could potentially be set aside by a court. As always, facts will be important if there is a lawsuit. So too will the law of the jurisdiction where the claim (if any) is brought, as some jurisdictions may be more willing to set aside waivers than others; will depend on a review of the law of the different potential jurisdictions. > **[Marine group says 10 subs in the world can dive to Titanic depths. Titan is...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/oceangate-warned-2018-david-lochridge-1.6883432)** > > The Marine Technology Society penned a letter in 2018 outlining concerns about the potential for catastrophic consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/338 "2023-06-22T04:27:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > For example, did the waiver papers say that the viewing window was only rated for 1,300 metres depth, but that _Titanic_ was at 3,800 metres? Did the waiver papers say that _Titan_ had not been submitted for safety reviews, the only one in the small group of submersibles designed to go to _Titanic_ that had not been reviewed? > > If there was full disclosure of those sorts of facts, then maybe the waivers would stand. … Right. I well remember one of my professors at law school saying something along the lines of, “Liability waivers are worth the paper they’re printed on—in other words, about two cents, tops.” He went on to say that unless they make full disclosure about what might happen, including death, a good lawyer could punch right through them. I have, sadly, had the vet put a number of pets to sleep. It was their time; they were old and struggling and in obvious distress. Anyway, I always had to sign a waiver for the euthanasia procedure. It always included the phrase, “This procedure will result in the death of your pet.” That’s unambiguous, and that’s the kind of thing any such waiver should address. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/339 "2023-06-22T04:48:24Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Right. I well remember one of my professors at law school saying something along the lines of, “Liability waivers are worth the paper they’re printed on—in other words, about two cents, tops.” He went on to say that unless they make full disclosure about what might happen, including death, a good lawyer could punch right through them. From what I understand, “death” appeared at least 3 times on the first page of the form, so there is that. But, [OTOH](https://jalopnik.com/oceangate-ceo-called-safety-a-waste-suit-claimed-titan-1850560257), > [@Oceangate CEO Stockton Rush](#): > > You know, there’s a limit. At some point safety just is pure waste. I mean if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed. Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/340 "2023-06-22T05:04:57Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Anyway, I always had to sign a waiver for the euthanasia procedure. It always included the phrase > > “This procedure will result in the death of your pet. > > **But either way, you get your dog back** ” Combo Veterinary/Taxidermy service! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781.md?page=18)