# Titanic tourist submarine missing 6-19-2023 (Debris field found, passengers presumed dead. 06-22-23) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [June 19, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781 "2023-06-19T16:29:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/341 "2023-06-22T05:14:16Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > He went on to say that unless they make full disclosure about what might happen, including death, a good lawyer could punch right through them. But surely there must be more to it than that? Because there is a wide gulf between: (a) You could die (because obviously it is inherently dangerous to be submerged at such an extreme depth, and no amount of care can eliminate all risk). (b) You could die (because on top of all that other stuff, this submersible was never tested, even though industry custom is to conduct such testing, especially on submersibles intended to operate at the depths this one will be at, and on top of that we got a strongly worded letter from experts in the field appraising us of the dangers of not properly testing our design, which we duly disregarded). In the first case, even if the parenthetical information is left unstated, it should be fairly obvious to a reasonable person that such a danger exists, and so any waiver on that basis alone could perhaps be considered knowing/intelligent. But in the second, absent an express statement conveying all that information, can a waiver will stand up to scrutiny? Otherwise, as you describe it, one would think it would be fairly easy to craft a rock solid waiver of liability for negligence. Just include up from “You could die” and bam, air tight waiver of liability! ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/342 "2023-06-22T05:21:39Z")
It would be negligent for their attorneys not to put a waiver of negligence in the waiver. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/343 "2023-06-22T05:24:03Z")
Perhaps they made the passengers sign a waiver regarding accuracy in waiver-writing. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/344 "2023-06-22T05:38:20Z")
/hijack/ > [@Spoons](#): > > Anyway, I always had to sign a waiver for the euthanasia procedure. It always included the phrase, “This procedure will result in the death of your pet.” For some reason, that is always the worse part of the whole thing. How stupid and mean is it that someone crying their eyes out has to sign a piece of paper agreeing that they are paying someone to kill their pet. /hijack over/ ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/345 "2023-06-22T05:53:34Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > How stupid and mean is it that someone crying their eyes out has to sign a piece of paper agreeing that they are paying someone to kill their pet. The wording uses “death”, not “kill”. And I don’t think I agree. With such an important decision, I think it should be stated clearly _without_ euphemisms. It’s not just a question of liability - there’s a risk that somebody genuinely doesn’t understand what is happening. They may not know what “put to sleep” means in this context, and not know what “euthanasia” means. Compare guidance on telling someone that a loved one has died. The usual recommendation includes stating clearly and simply that they have died without euphemism or circumlocution. [Announcing a death: telling other people about someone's death](https://www.mariecurie.org.uk/help/support/bereaved-family-friends/dealing-grief/telling-others) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/346 "2023-06-22T05:56:09Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > For some reason, that is always the worse part of the whole thing. How stupid and mean is it that someone crying their eyes out has to sign a piece of paper agreeing that they are paying someone to kill their pet. Imagine being me, Jane. As a lawyer, I write the fine print. And in this circumstance, as in many, my profession obligates me to read the fine print. So I do—and it takes a few minutes. All while the receptionist is saying, “Just sign it already; everybody else does.” No, Receptionist, I will read the fine print, and only after I understand what it means, will I sign it. It still hurts, though. Okay, hijack about pet euthanasia over. Let’s carry on with our discussion of the submersible _Titan_. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/347 "2023-06-22T06:21:34Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I don’t know how dynamically stable neutral buoyancy in water is. Not at all, neutral buoyancy is unstable: see the Cartesian diver ([wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_diver) and [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cartesian+diver+explained)). So if by “lost propulsion” you include “lost buoyancy control” then, if they start sinking ever so slightly, they sink faster and faster to the bottom, if they start rising even just a bit, they rise to the surface. Nice as it sounds, no _Flying Dutchman_ at variable depths scenario conceivable. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/348 "2023-06-22T07:55:27Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > It strikes me that the CEO of OceanGate did something similar, except he did bring **passengers** along. > > You misspelled “Mission Specialists”. Yeah, I suppose I did. I was also using “passenger” in the sense used by someone in the Experimental aircraft arena: someone who is _not_ absolutely essential to the operation of the vessel even if they’re doing something interesting/important. > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Carbon dioxide was an issue that occurred to me just a little while ago. It’s something that hasn’t been mentioned in the media, or anywhere upthread (except for your post) as far as I can tell I actually heard someone in a TV spot, someone being interviewed by a reporter, mention that issue along with a few others. It’s out there, but the average person is thinking “air” more than they’re thinking about what makes up what a person breathes. > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > If the thing is only outfitted for a mission of 8 hours, would they even have bothered including a CO2 scrubber in the design? Would CO2 build up be a fatal problem in less than 4 days, especially considering the volume of that sub is so small? It could be a problem… we sitting here really don’t know and the OceanGate website is short on such technical details. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/349 "2023-06-22T08:25:27Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > > [@Spoons](#): > > > > Anyway, I always had to sign a waiver for the euthanasia procedure. It always included the phrase > > > > “This procedure will result in the death of your pet. > > > > **But either way, you get your dog back** ” > > Combo Veterinary/Taxidermy service! Moderating: you have changed the text inside the quote box. That is forbidden under our rules, even if annotated, and this isn’t even annotated. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/350 "2023-06-22T08:58:28Z")
Something that hadn’t occurred to me is that it was “near freezing” in the sub. > **[Chilling Tales of Past Dives to Titanic Wreckage Keep Piling Up](https://www.thedailybeast.com/chilling-tales-of-past-dives-to-titanic-wreckage-keep-piling-up)** > > Those who have boarded unregulated submersibles and trekked to the doomed ocean liner have described a litany of issues with their trips—foreshadowing this week’s tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/351 "2023-06-22T10:17:12Z")
Is there a good chance this sub will never be found? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/352 "2023-06-22T10:43:47Z")
Certainly a valid possibility. That thing is relatively small and the ocean is vast. It took over 70 years to find the Titanic itself, and that thing is huge and they knew more or less where it should be. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/353 "2023-06-22T11:12:51Z")
Although they know more or less where this sub is, too. Maybe it will be found the next time a sub goes down to see the Titanic. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/354 "2023-06-22T11:17:18Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe it will be found the next time a sub goes down to see the Titanic. The Titanic/Groundhog Day ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/355 "2023-06-22T11:21:30Z")
Search vehicle reaches sea floor: > [@](#): > > The Canadian vessel Horizon Arctic has deployed an ROV that has reached the sea floor and began its search for the missing sub. #Titanic [https://twitter.com/USCGNortheast/status/1671834476303794176](https://twitter.com/USCGNortheast/status/1671834476303794176) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/356 "2023-06-22T11:41:49Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Still, I remember when “NASA stands for Need Another Seven Astronauts” after the Challenger explosion. What were the astronauts’ last words? “No, I meant a _Bud_ Lite!” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/357 "2023-06-22T12:04:20Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Something that hadn’t occurred to me is that it was “near freezing” in the sub. Yeah. Summarizing there are 4 time-limiting factors: 1. Freezing to death in ~35F temps when the heaters give out. 2. Running out of oxygen, whether bottled or chemically generated. 3. Building up excess CO2 after your scrubbing capacity is exhausted. 4. Running out of potable water and the means (if any) to generate more. And last of all, one fast-acting risk: 5. The ocean coming inside where you were a moment ago. Depending on the provisioning, any of the first 4 could be the most limiting factor among them. The ocean coming inside of course can happen at any point and will pretty much instamagically end your scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/358 "2023-06-22T12:15:03Z")
[![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzNKAQpaEAEewDK?format=jpg&name=900x900) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzNKAQpaEAEewDK?format=jpg&name=900x900) The more I learn about this sub, the more surprised I am that it took _this long_ for something to go fatally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/359 "2023-06-22T13:53:24Z")
I’m greatly annoyed by the media coverage of this incident that kept portraying things as if there were a 50-50 chance that the passengers would be saved, all the way til the end, as opposed to being realistic from the outset and somberly saying “There’s probably a 0.1% chance that anyone’s going to emerge alive from this, but various governmental agencies and private entities are still going to do their due diligence.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781/360 "2023-06-22T14:02:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Shocking details about the Titan and OceanGate have emerged this week. That included the surfacing\* of comments from the company’s founder, Stockton Rush, bemoaning regulations and calling safety efforts a “pure waste.” Rush is believed to have been on board Titan’s most recent dive. > > “I mean if you just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed, don’t get in your car, don’t do anything,” Rush told CBS News in a podcast last year. “At some point, you’re going to take some risk, and it really is a risk-reward question.” True, I face similar risks just getting out of bed in the morning. I could fall down the toilet, get stuck and need the Coast Guard to search for me. \*heh [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/titanic-tourist-submarine-missing-6-19-2023-debris-field-found-passengers-presumed-dead-06-22-23/985781.md?page=19)