# TJHSST Admissions process illegally discriminates against asians (UPDATE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 2, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375 "2022-03-02T22:54:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/21 "2022-07-28T18:22:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Make up your mind. Are “elite” public schools supposed to make their admissions decisions solely on the basis of “academic merit” (and what exactly does that mean? selecting only the students with the highest numerical test scores and grades, or something else?), or on the basis of “merit” more broadly defined (and what exactly does THAT mean?)? What do you mean “make up my mind”? You were talking about colleges. I acknowledged that there are different way to be meritorious in that context. Are you under the impression that I was saying that TJHSST should be admitting the best athletes in Fairfax? In my opinion, merit should be objective, relevant and selective. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, if racial diversity has some value, and it’s a value that we want our “elite” public schools to have, then how do we go about actually implementing it? I don’t know but in my opinion racial diversity is not important enough to engage in racial discrimination. The notion that there is a good form of racial discrimination and a bad form of racial discrimination and that you can tell one from the other is giving yourself more power than I think anyone ought to have. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, like I said, there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance on the issue. A majority of Americans object to the idea of considering race/ethnicity as a factor in college admissions, yet [most college applicants of all races still want to attend racially diverse colleges.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/14/its-college-admissions-season-students-are-looking-diverse-campuses/) So at least you are acknowledging that your position is not as popular as you first thought. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Because that’s an important part of how you get aspiring college students to apply to your school. So you think Harvard would suffer a significant drop in qualified applications if they didn’t engage in racial discrimination? > [@Kimstu](#): > > A whole lot of people say they don’t want any “racial preferences” or other diversity initiatives in college admissions, but nonetheless automatically expect and desire colleges to have diverse student bodies. As long as those folks refuse to recognize the inherent contradictions in their positions, there’s no real way to meaningfully discuss the issue with them. What is the contradiction? Are some races incapable of getting into good schools without racial preferences? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/22 "2022-07-28T18:23:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There’s no test for that. And if there was? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/23 "2022-07-28T18:30:33Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Would you object to allowing 100% of students who achieve these merits admission to the program? We have identified a reasonable metric of academic success, we do not admit those who fail to show high academic skills, because those without academic skills cannot do well in this program. Is this OK? The criteria for qualifying for the proposed lottery was excluding 5% of applicants. That was what they had to do to get a lottery pool that had the melanin profile they wanted. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Personally, I don’t think children should be forced to win a competition in order to go to a public school. Take 100% of the kids who are qualified for the program, and randomly select who gets to go. Maybe then the parents who are ruthlessly pushing their kids for stratospheric test scores can lay the fuck off for a little while, because it’s not going to give their kid the leg up they so richly demand. I think you may misunderstand why some parents push their kids. For example, the vast majority of asian parents know that their kids have no chance at harvard or cal tech. They’re not smart enough, motivated enough or mature enough. But they still push them academically because no matter where they end up on the academic spectrum, they are better off higher on that spectrum than lower. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/24 "2022-07-28T18:37:06Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > In my opinion, merit should be objective, relevant and selective. Again, this is just vague waffle that doesn’t actually confront any of the real-world hard choices about specific admissions criteria. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > So at least you are acknowledging that your position is not as popular as you first thought. On the contrary, I’m providing supporting evidence that my position is indeed very popular, including among many people who simultaneously support positions that contradict it. Which I acknowledged right from the get-go in my post #9: > [@Kimstu](#): > > There’s a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in the “meritocracy” debate as well. Most college applicants, like anybody else, naturally want their own “academic merit” to give them an admissions advantage over less “meritorious” students. But at the same time, most of them also favor schools with more diverse student bodies and with a thriving variety of student interests and activities, including nonacademic ones like sports teams and arts groups. This cognitive dissonance among so many self-described “meritocracy” advocates is what’s producing the apparent contradiction that you’re mistakenly ascribing to me. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > What is the contradiction? Are some races incapable of getting into good schools without racial preferences? No, but disadvantaged groups on average have a much harder time accumulating the same sorts of achievement records and resumes as more privileged groups. And because of historical patterns in our country, general socioeconomic disadvantage often tracks closely with racial prejudice. Unfortunately, a lot of people want to continue ignoring the realities of persistent inequality and disadvantage in our society, accomplish nothing to redress them, and label the result “objective meritocracy”. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/25 "2022-07-28T18:39:54Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > And if there was? Sure, if we are in a magic fantasy land where this test existed, let’s take that result. There’s no magic test for lifeguards, and there’s no magic test for students either. You’re stuck with the real world tests that can be gamed, and loopholed, and twisted, only test the things you can test, and ignore the things you can’t test. This is why companies who constantly test and grade their employees via “objective” metrics are terrible places to work. They get employees who are more interested in the metrics than the job. But, this isn’t someone looking to enter into a business contract, this is a child looking to go to school. Public schools don’t exist to maximize student output in order to drive shareholder value. They exist to benefit the people who live in the community, to be a place where children can learn and grow as people. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/26 "2022-07-28T18:41:08Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > The criteria for qualifying for the proposed lottery was excluding 5% of applicants. Were the applicants unsuitable for the school? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/27 "2022-07-28T19:22:43Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > On the gripping hand, the new governor of virginia is coming through on his promise to try and roll back the new admissions policy at tjhsst. Oh, you mean the governor that also won thanks to promising to give parents a choice about vaccination and masking? It took very little time to find the kind of people that governor was going to appoint, in essence: tools. From your cited article: > Dutta is blasting FCPS for suspending students for misgendering their peers – a policy the school board designed to protect transgender and gender-fluid students. > > “I think instead of addressing our children’s needs, and ensuring that children can read and write and do math, what some people are doing is inserting their own ideology ahead of our children’s needs,” said Dutta. “This is extremely confusing for our children. And it doesn’t serve any purpose. This is really not education. Yeah… lets not teach students about how wrong is to discriminate against transgender or gay students… ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/28 "2022-07-28T19:34:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Again, this is just vague waffle that doesn’t actually confront any of the real-world hard choices about specific admissions criteria. If you want to know what specific admissions criteria I would use it would depend on whether we are talking about a science and technology high school like tjhsst or a school like harvard college. For a science and technology high schoollike tjhsst, I would use a test. I could be convinced to use other factors but a fair and objective test all by itself would be fine. For a general college, I would use whatever objective methodology the college wants to use as long as identifying information was scrubbed form the application like the university of california system. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Which I acknowledged right from the get-go in my post #9: OK if you meant to say that racial preferences are in fact very unpopular but that people want racial diversity that can only be achieved through racial preferences, then I apologize. But then I disagree with the underlying assumption that diversity can only be achieved through racial preferences. > [@Kimstu](#): > > No, but disadvantaged groups on average have a much harder time accumulating the same sorts of achievement records and resumes as more privileged groups. And because of historical patterns in our country, general socioeconomic disadvantage often tracks closely with racial prejudice. In what way is a poor hispanic immigrant more disadvantaged than a poor asian immigrant? Would it surprise you to find out that in places like NYC, asians have higher rates of poverty than blacks? Would it surprise you to hear that asians experience more hate crimes in NYC than blacks? > [@Kimstu](#): > > Unfortunately, a lot of people want to continue ignoring the realities of persistent inequality and disadvantage in our society, accomplish nothing to redress them, and label the result “objective meritocracy”. I don’t doubt that there is racism and that being white is easier than being black but how does that justify discriminating against asians? ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/29 "2022-07-28T19:41:43Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > and there’s no magic test for students either. There are literally thousands of studies saying that you can devise a test that measures your academic ability. Psychometrics is not a new things. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > But, this isn’t someone looking to enter into a business contract, this is a child looking to go to school. Public schools don’t exist to maximize student output in order to drive shareholder value. They exist to benefit the people who live in the community, to be a place where children can learn and grow as people. All the more reason to make sure that public resources are efficiently allocated. The problem is that you end up admitting a bunch of kids that will fail in an environment that was not made for them. Lowell high in san francisco actually went to a lottery and the failure rate of the kids admitted through lottery was significantly higher than the ones that were admitted through an academic screen. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/30 "2022-07-28T19:43:13Z")
At the low end, almost certainly. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/31 "2022-07-28T20:01:05Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > No, but disadvantaged groups on average have a much harder time accumulating the same sorts of achievement records and resumes as more privileged groups. And because of historical patterns in our country, general socioeconomic disadvantage often tracks closely with racial prejudice. > > In what way is a poor hispanic immigrant more disadvantaged than a poor asian immigrant? > Would it surprise you to find out that in places like NYC, asians have higher rates of poverty than blacks? > Would it surprise you to hear that asians experience more hate crimes in NYC than blacks? Noted that these replies do not touch what @Kimstu is saying here. There is evidence of how prejudice can affect health care access, and that is a factor in affecting the early educational development of Hispanic immigrants vs the Asian ones. > **[Hispanic-Asian Immigrant Inequality in Perceived Medical Need and Access to...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4442749/)** > > In the face of continuing large immigrant streams, Hispanic and Asian immigrants’ human and social capital inequalities will heighten U.S. race/ethnic health and health care disparities. Using data from the 2004 and 2008 panels of the Survey of ... ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/32 "2022-07-28T20:03:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > t took very little time to find the kind of people that governor was going to appoint, in essence: tools. Everyone appoints tools. As long as the one doing the appointing was elected by the citizens it’s OK. You don’t like the appointees? Try winning an election sometime. Going out of your way to demonize otherwise liberal folks by calling them nazis if they aren’t as liberal as you is not a good way to win elections. At least this tool doesn’t believe that there is such a thing as good racial discrimination versus bad racial discrimination. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yeah… lets not teach students about how wrong is to discriminate against transgender or gay students… She is objecting to an overly woke school board that is more focused on sjw bullshit than actually educating students. Their wokeness probably cost McAuliffe the election. Do we have to bring the transgender debate into this too? Or are you trying to say that anyone that objects to anti-asian discrimination is also a transphobe? Anyways, hopefully the state figures out how to get tjhsst back on track so that it stops admitting kids that need a year of remedial math. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/33 "2022-07-28T20:05:39Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Everyone appoints tools. > As long as the one doing the appointing was elected by the citizens it’s OK. > You don’t like the appointees? Try winning an election sometime. That is just implying that you approve of the ignorance that they use to set policies. That leads to states or even nations to become poorer. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/34 "2022-07-28T20:10:32Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > She is objecting to an overly woke school board And you continue to miss that when “woke” is used as a slur, in this context, most right wingers use it as a way of telling any person that would help unrepresented minorities to back off. Less polite people that did that before preferred to be more direct. (“Now you guys that we appointed, don’t become n\*\*\*\*\* lovers”) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/35 "2022-07-28T20:13:53Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Do we have to bring the transgender debate into this too? Or are you trying to say that anyone that objects to anti-asian discrimination is also a transphobe? That is what the tool that was appointed (and you were glad the ignorant governor did) said in the very article you cited. I don’t think she represents all Asians, but then it does not seem to be a problem for many conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/36 "2022-07-28T20:20:44Z")
“Furthermore, the disparity in health insurance coverage can completely explain the health care access differences between Asian and Hispanic immigrants.” The article seems to also point to assimilation and english language ability. This is a poverty thing, not a race thing. If you want to provide additional opportunities for poor kids that is not a racial discrimination. NYC tried this with their discovery program and they ended up with more blacks and hispanics AND asians but all at the cost of whites, so the program sort of stopped at the current level. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/37 "2022-07-28T20:22:14Z")
What makes you think a policy based on advancing merit is more likely to make nations poorer than one based on racial discrimination? That’s an odd conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/38 "2022-07-28T20:23:13Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > This is a poverty thing, not a race thing. That is not what the research showed, if that was so then the results would be the same regardless of the poverty level. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/39 "2022-07-28T20:28:06Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > What makes you think a policy based on advancing merit is more likely to make nations poorer than one based on racial discrimination? That’s an odd conclusion. Oy vey! When they appoint ignorant people, chances are that conservatives will get the ignorant results that conservatives want, but there will be also many more results that conservatives blissfully ignore that society will get, for that kind of people being appointed are much, much more likely to ignore evidence to produce policies that will make more harm than good. **It is not just admissions.** ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375/40 "2022-07-28T20:28:48Z")
Woke is used as a derogatory term by many on the left as well. We are indeed telling you to back off. You are losing elections. The only elections you are winning are the ones replacing moderate democrats with marxist democrats without challenging a single republican seat. I have to take off for a bit. I will return later so I can deal with all the baseless accusations of racism and transphobia, etc. all at once. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tjhsst-admissions-process-illegally-discriminates-against-asians-update/960375.md?page=3)