# TNG episode "The Last Outpost": Ferengi as Bad Asian Stereotypes?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [December 5, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252 "2003-12-05T22:27:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/1 "2003-12-05T22:27:19Z")
[sub]Not exactly heavy enough for GD, plus I’m just wondering what you all thought about this, not necessarily looking for a debate…[/sub]
I watched Season 1’s episode “The Last Outpost” the other day - the episode which was the first to introduce the Ferengi.
As I was watching, something occurred to me - were they deliberately making the Ferengi out to be Asian, using the worst Asian stereotypes?
Let me try and list what I’m talking about:
[ul]
[li] Sneaky, lying and manipulative[/li][li] Only interested in profit[/li][li] “Mysterious Orient” vibe: “All we know about them is from second-hand accounts…”[/li][li] Fancy whip-weapon, kinda looks like something out of Martial Arts[/li][li] Chauvinists - threat their women as 2nd class citizens[/li][li] Short[/li][li] Kimono-looking outfiuts[/li][/ul]
So you’ve got some classic Asian stereotypes right there.
But throw in that in that episode they also kept quoting from Sun Tzu’s Art of War, and there was that whole “chinese finger trap” thing going on with Data.
So, have I gone mad? Maybe kinda something to this? This was from Season 1, and even as recently as 1987 we weren’t as PC as we are today. Heck, let’s not forget that weird “Tasha Yar” fights African American women episode was also from Season 1…
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### Author:  [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/2 "2003-12-05T23:22:12Z")
I think you’ve gone mad. I always saw them as evil Jews. I doubt they were designed as anything. Whatever they had in mind, they didn’t work as real bad dudes, and that is why they evolved to the more complex society seen on DS9.
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/3 "2003-12-05T23:27:38Z")
It seems to be this interpretation of them reflects more on you than it does on the writers of the show.
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### Author:  [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/4 "2003-12-05T23:29:35Z")
They were stated in that episode to have all the bad habits of “yankee traders”. Unfortunately I didn’t watch the whole episode, so I can’t look back to see how oriental they seemed. They always seemed to me to be a slam against the evils of capitalism/consumerism.
Loved the DS9 episode where Quark’s mom brought out his long lost action figures and told him "If you’d left them in their packaging. . . "
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### Author:  [@Sqwerticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sqwerticus)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/5 "2003-12-05T23:34:45Z")
I can’t believe I am admitting this…
Required reading in our house includes ‘The New Trek Programme Guide’ - to be found on a convenient shelf in the bathroom.
Primarily, it is an episode by episode guide. It also contains a chapter headed Metaphor and Trek which says, amongst other things, that TNG explored the mechanisms of America, especially American foreign policy
> [@](#):
>
> The Klingons, who had been the Soviets, got more alien and became Islamic, albeit very \* Lawrence of Arabia-\*Islamic. The Federation was also contrasted with the Borg (the Japanese), the Cardassians (a canny mixture of Israeli and the new Russians),the Bajorans (the Palestinians), and, in a move which suggested that Rodenberry wasn’t averse to pushing his metaphor to its logical end, the Ferengi (the evils of capitalism.)
>
> Regretably, the last case shows how much he was up against. Firstly the design of the Ferengi instantly veered into the anti-Semitic. This seems to have had more to do with culturally developed images of greed than with actual prejudice. Secondly, the Ferengi were swiftly made into characters at the centre of the Federation, loveable rogues rather than avaricious pirates, and so the line was neatly drawn. You can try to be sympathetic to Islam if you like, but you can’t knock the power of the Dollar.
In other parts of the book, that I can’t find right now, it mentions who the Vulcans and Romulans are supposed to be too. Whether you agree with the above or not, having read it I found that it becomes difficult not to recognise that stereotypes are definitely widespread. Like you say - they tend to be not very PC. It goes on to mention the lack of gay presence, ‘especially when the series sells itself as the liberal hope for the future of a whole culture’. Maybe along with poverty and hunger, they have ‘cured’ homosexuality too in their Brave New World! (Stop! Stop! Before you flame me, that was a joke.)
So **Dooku** , I don’t think you are necessarily as heinous, or alone in your opinion as **pepperlandgirl** suggests.
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/6 "2003-12-05T23:46:37Z")
All I’m saying is that none of the things he listed would ever occur to me to be an Asian stereotype. I don’t know, maybe it’s a matter of when/where we were raised, but I would never look at that list and think “Yep, must be a non-so-subtle reference to Asians!”
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/7 "2003-12-06T00:01:09Z")
This is one of the reasons why I never particularly like Star Trek, and why I eventually became disenfranchised with a lot of science fiction and most fantasy. It’s usually pretty fundamentally racist. Not, I hasten to add, against any actual minority: although the Ferengi practically scream “Jewish stereotype” I never thought for an instant that they represented some sort of anti-Semetic subtext from the show’s creators. But it does illustrate exactly the same sort of sloppy thinking that underlies genuine, real-world racism: that members of other groups can be easily defined by one or two characteristics. Ferengi are greedy. Vulcans are smart. Klingons are angry. Humans, however, can be logical or greedy or angry or any combination thereof. In a real world context, substitute Jew for Ferengi, Asian for Vulcan, African for Klingon, and white for human, and you have the standard worldview for your average racist-in-the-street.
Please note that I’m not saying the Roddenberry and his corporate inheritors are racists. I’m just saying that they’re poor writers.
I also don’t particularly care for the idea that, because I can spot a racial stereotype, it must necessarily follow that I believe in that racial stereotype.
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### Author:  [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/8 "2003-12-06T00:11:16Z")
I’m with **pepperlandgirl** , I wasn’t even aware that some of the things you mentioned in your OP such as:
\*\*- Sneaky, lying and manipulative
- Only interested in profit\*\*
were Asian stereotypes. Jewish stereotypes sure, but not Asian. And as for,
- “Mysterious Orient” vibe: “All we know about them is from second-hand accounts…”
Mysterousness is an Asian stereotype?
I’m not saying that I think you are wrong (well, ok I am), it is a bit of a stretch.
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### Author:  [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/9 "2003-12-06T00:25:33Z")
To clarify what i said (the evil Jews), i usually like to look for super stretched references to actual things in a show so i can go on long rants about how they are racist. For humor value. Which is why that show is racist against black men, as they are either blind or covered in makeup, since a normal black person would be too much of an upsetting thing to the gentle viewers. (note: that was complete garbage)
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### Author:  [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/10 "2003-12-06T00:35:21Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \*
> \*\*It seems to be this interpretation of them reflects more on you than it does on the writers of the show. \*\*
I happen to live in San Francisco and have many, many Asian friends. I also have many, many Asian coworkers. I was certainly raised in a racist atmosphere and I suppose this may have led to me noticing things where they don’t exist. (The Chinese finger trap and quotes from Sun Tzu in that episode certainly weren’t imagined, though).
Regardless, I don’t take lightly your implication that I am in any way racist, and I certainly don’t appreciate your flippant remarks about how my innocent curiosity about some silly TV episode reflects upon my character in any way.
Thanks for making my day - fuck, sometimes I hate this board.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/11 "2003-12-06T00:39:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Azael \*
> I’m with **pepperlandgirl** , I wasn’t even aware that some of the things you mentioned in your OP such as:
>
> - Sneaky, lying and manipulative
>
> - Only interested in profit
>
> were Asian stereotypes. Jewish stereotypes sure, but not Asian.
Both of these have been used to stereotype the Japanese at one point or another. “Sneaky”, in particular, after Pearl Harbor, and “only interested in profit” was a popular slur in the '80s when the Japanese were beating the crap out of the American automotive industry.
> [@](#):
>
> And as for,
>
> - “Mysterious Orient” vibe: “All we know about them is from second-hand accounts…”
>
> Mysterousness is an Asian stereotype?
>
> I’m not saying that I think you are wrong (well, ok I am), it is a bit of a stretch.
“Mysterious” is the orignal Asian stereotype. Mysteries of the orient, ancient Chinese secrets… this one predates Marco Polo. Mostly because, before Marco Polo, most Europeans couldn’t be arsed to get out East and find out exactly what was going on out there, hence the “mystery.”
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/12 "2003-12-06T03:07:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Dooku \*
> \*\*I happen to live in San Francisco and have many, many Asian friends. I also have many, many Asian coworkers. I was certainly raised in a racist atmosphere and I suppose this may have led to me noticing things where they don’t exist. (The Chinese finger trap and quotes from Sun Tzu in that episode certainly weren’t imagined, though).
>
> Regardless, I don’t take lightly your implication that I am in any way racist, and I certainly don’t appreciate your flippant remarks about how my innocent curiosity about some silly TV episode reflects upon my character in any way.
>
> Thanks for making my day - fuck, sometimes I hate this board. \*\*
FWIW, I am sorry for upsetting you. That was my first reaction because I just don’t recognize any of the things you listed as an “asian” stereotype.
Regardles of my reasoning, however, it was an inappropriate thing to post and I apologize.
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### Author:  [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/13 "2003-12-06T03:53:25Z")
Y’know, I never thought of the Ferengi as Jewish. While they had the characteristics that could be attributed to stereotyped Jews (let’s face it, this comes down to greed and a love of money), they didn’t have the PERSONAL attributes. If they’d had big noses or raspy voices, or always asked for “buttah” on their toast, I might buy it.
Watto from _Star Wars: Episode I_ was Jewish stereotyping. Gargamel from _The Smurfs_ was Jewish stereotyping. The Ferengi are, at best, captialist stereotypes, and annoying ones at that.
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/14 "2003-12-06T04:40:58Z")
I’m with **Miller**. Whether the races (they don’t even call them different _species_ - different aliens are different _races_) are or are not mappable to race stereotypes on Earth, they do belie an underlying belief that there are basic behaviors common among members of a given “race.”
So the fact that I always thought Romulans were stereotypes of Chinese, and the closely-related but logical Vulcans were stereotypes of Japanese (and the Vulcan language is a clear rip off of Japanese) is neither here nor there.
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### Author:  [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/15 "2003-12-06T05:07:19Z")
The Romulans live on the planets Romulus and Remus, are ruled by a Praetor, and have ranks in their military that translate as Centurion and you think that they’re _Chinese_?
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/16 "2003-12-06T05:37:55Z")
Ditto what **Aesiron** is suggesting.
The Romulans, from the very beginning, were very obviously modeled after some sort of Roman-esque empire.
Not that I’m an expert in American stereotypes, but in what way are the Romulans a clear slam at the Chinese?
I do like what **Miller** said. The fact that Ferengi are greedy does not mean that they are a blatantly Jewish stereotype. It _does_ show that the writers don’t have a problem with blatant simplification and generalization of a group of people.
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### Author:  [@Eternal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eternal)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/17 "2003-12-06T05:55:01Z")
I think all this stuff about any of the species being modelled on a race is bull. They wanted them to represent ideas in their purest forms. It’s all so blunt it makes me roll my eyes. I can never watch a TOS episode because my eyes are affixed to the ceiling.
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### Author:  [@TheQuagmire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheQuagmire)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/18 "2003-12-06T06:30:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Dooku \*
> \*\*I happen to live in San Francisco and have many, many Asian friends.
\*\*
Just saying that doesn’t let you off the hook. It’s like prefacing every racist comment with “I have _insert minority_ friends but…”
> [@](#):
>
> Regardless, I don’t take lightly your implication that I am in any way racist, and I certainly don’t appreciate your flippant remarks about how my innocent curiosity about some silly TV episode reflects upon my character in any way.
> \*\*
Sorry, but if you assign characteristic/racial traits to a ethnicity and then claim an entirely fictional character represents that ethnicity then you have a predilection towards racism.
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### Author:  [@captainQwark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/captainQwark)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/19 "2003-12-06T07:36:52Z")
Go ahead and ruin her day some more, Quagmire.
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### Author:  [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tng-episode-the-last-outpost-ferengi-as-bad-asian-stereotypes/217252/20 "2003-12-06T07:49:16Z")
I always saw the races as :
Federation = Americans
Klingons = Fuedal Japanese
Cardassians = Germans
Bajorans = Israelis
Ferengi = “modern” Japanese/Jews
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